In this issue: Today in History -- Aug 30 Today in History -- Aug 31 Ten little legionaries Book source Re: Ten little legionaries Re: Ten little legionaries Today in History -- Sep 01 RE: Ten little legionaries Re: Ten little legionaries (OT Nursey Ryme) Re: Ten little legionaries [MISTI/FTM attachment transfer error] Re: Ten little legionaries Christie Re: Ten little legionaries RE: Christie Re: Ten little legionaries Today in History -- Sep 02 Re: Today in History -- Sep 02 Re: Today in History -- Sep 02 How the Old Woman Got Home Chat: Ring Around the Rosie Re: Re: Today in History -- Sep 02 Re: How the Old Woman Got Home Re: Re: Today in History -- Sep 02 Re: How the Old Woman Got Home Hello Central Re: Ten little legionaries Re: Ten little legionaries Re: Ten little legionaries Re: Childrens' rhymes Re: Hello, Central children's rhymes and 10 Legionnaires Re: Hello, Central Re: Chat: Ring Around the Rosie -----------------------------THE POSTS----------------------------- Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 01:15:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Champ <rchamp(at)polaris.umuc.edu> Subject: Today in History -- Aug 30 Interesting things that happened August 30th: Birthdays on this date: In 1797 Mary Shelley, author (Frankenstein) In 1837 Ellen Lewis Herndon Arthur, wife of president Chester A. Arthur In 1871 Ernest Rutherford (in England), physicist In 1884 Theodor Svedberg, Swedish chemist, worked with colloids (Nobel '26) In 1893 Huey P. Long, Louisiana Governor In 1896 Raymond Massey, actor In 1901 John Gunther, writer + Roy Wilkins, director of NAACP In 1907 Shirley Booth (in New York), actor (Hazel) In 1908 Fred MacMurray, actor (Caine Mutiny, My Three Sons) In 1909 Joan Blondell (in New York) In 1918 Ted Williams, baseball great Events worth noting: In 1850 Honolulu, Hawaii becomes a city. In 1862 Battle of Richmond, KY. + Battle of Second Manassas - Pope defeated by Lee. In 1906 Hal Chase became first Yank to hit 3 triples in a game. In 1910 Yank Tom Hughes pitches 9 no hit innings but loses 5-0 in the 11th. I read recently that a team of doctors in the US has successfully perfected the technique, in animals, of removing heads and attaching them to other bodies--an operation that involves lowering brain temperature to prevent serious cell damage. The next step is to try the operation on humans. Mary Shelley, in her _Frankenstein_, was more prescient than she could ever have believed. [BC]
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Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 00:31:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Champ <rchamp(at)polaris.umuc.edu> Subject: Today in History -- Aug 31 Interesting things that happened August 31st: Birthdays on this date: In 1870 Maria Montessori, educator In 1903 Arthur Godfrey, radio, TV host + Sir Bernard Lovell, English radio astronomer, founded Jodrell Bank In 1908 William Saroyan, novelist, playwright (Time of Your Life) In 1918 Alan Jay Lerner, composer Events worth noting: In 1842 US Naval Observatory is authorized by an act of Congress. In 1864 Atlanta Campaign - Battle of Jonesborough. In 1886 First major earthquake recorded in eastern US, atCharleston, S.C. In 1895 John Brailier becomes the first "pro" football player when he receives $10 for expenses in a game at Latrobe, Pennsylvania. You can always tell from the number of posts at Gaslight when a new semester has begun. To all the academics out there--good luck with your classes this fall! Bob C.
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Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 10:18:58 -0600 From: sdavies(at)MtRoyal.AB.CA Subject: Ten little legionaries I'm wondering how many thought of Agatha Christie when they read this story, based on the children's rhyme "Ten little Indians" (or worse, if you go back to the original). Was this the first time Christie co-opted something from the nursery to create an evil mystery? If so, the inspiration seems to have been Wren's in this book _Stepsons of France_ (1917). This was Wren's sixth book. Conversely "Coward of the legion" seems close to an earlier, better known coward story _The four feathers_ (1900), but Wren does a much better job of explaining the cowardice than A.E.W. Mason had done. Wren had served in the French Foreign Legion until the Great War, at which point he joined the British army. He was invalided in 1917, at which point he resumed a desultory writing career. This seems to be the year he first tried writing about the Foreign Legion, but his great success with the subject didn't come until several years later. In 1924, seven years after his last book, he expanded on the theme of the gallant, honourable Englishman under cruel and trying circumstances in _Beau Geste_ , which was successful enough to inspire the sequels, _Beau Sabreur_ (1926) and _Beau Ideal_ (1927). Stephen D mailto:SDavies(at)mtroyal.ab.ca
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Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 13:22:17 -0400 From: "Roberts, Leonard" <lroberts(at)email.uncc.edu> Subject: Book source Here is a source in England of books some of which are in the Gaslight era. The website is named Books at Sixpence which is definitely not a description of the prices. Printed ephemera were also listed. The URL is: http://www.Sixpence.demon.co.uk/ Len Roberts
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Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 10:29:50 -0700 From: Deborah McMillion Nering <deborah(at)alice.gloaming.com> Subject: Re: Ten little legionaries >Was this the first time Christie co-opted something from the >nursery to create an evil mystery? Wasn't there a Miss Marple story called "Pocketful of Rye" based on the nursery rhyme "Sing a Song of Sixpence"? Deborah Deborah McMillion deborah(at)gloaming.com http://www.gloaming.com/deborah.html
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Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 12:33:38 -0500 From: Ann Hilgeman <eahilg(at)seark.net> Subject: Re: Ten little legionaries Some Christie titles in addition to Ten Little Indians One, Two, Buckle My Shoe - 1940 Hickory, Dickory Dock 1955 (Hickory Dickory Death in the US) A Pocket Full of Rye 1953 Ann Hilgeman
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Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 00:17:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Champ <rchamp(at)polaris.umuc.edu> Subject: Today in History -- Sep 01 Interesting things that happened September 1st: Birthdays on this date: In 1791 Lydia Sigourney, American religious author (How to Be Happy) In 1854 Engelbert Humperdinck, German opera composer (Hansel und Gretl) In 1866 James "Gentleman Jim" Corbett, prize fighter In 1875 Edgar Rice Burroughs, novelist (Tarzan) In 1904 Ray Flaherty, AFL, NFL, AAFC coach In 1907 Walter Reuther, labor leader, president of UAW and CIO [Bob note; A religious leader in 19th-century America wrote a "how-to" book? Godfrey Daniels!) Events worth noting: In 1807 Aaron Burr aquitted of charges of plotting to set up an empire. In 1859 First pullman sleeping car in service. + R. C. Carrington and R. Hodgson make the first observation of solar flare. In 1862 Severe action at Chantilly, Virginia. In 1864 Sherman's march through Georgia begins. In 1870 Napoleon III captured at Sedan. In 1878 First woman telephone operator starts work (Emma Nutt in Boston). In 1890 First baseball tripleheader - Boston vs Pittsburgh. In 1896 Chop Suey is devised to appeal to both American and Chinese tastes. The word means 'hash' in Chinese. In 1905 Alberta and Saskatchewan become 8th and 9th Canadian provinces. In 1906 Jack Combs pitches 24 inninings beating the Red Sox. In 1911 M. Fourny sets world aircraft distance record of 720 km. In 1914 Martha, last known passenger pigeon, dies at Cincinnati Zoo. In 1918 U.S. troops land in Vladivostok, Siberia, stay until 1920. In 1923 Earthquake struck Tokyo, estimated 74,000 people died.
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Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 17:54:03 +1000 From: Craig Walker <genre(at)tig.com.au> Subject: RE: Ten little legionaries Hi there, You know I've been thinking that a look at the specific nursery rhymes may be a nice thing to do, too. I know some must ceom from out of period, but some must be in period - and a look at the events they refer to would be worthwhile too :) Of course - this may well have been done already - if so, I'll pull my head back in. Cheers Craig +---------------------------------------+ Craig Walker Genre Manipulations - Reality Engineers Ph: Intl +61 2 9550-0815 Fx: Intl +61 2 9564-5689 Mb: Intl +61 419 22-0013 ICQ: 1053193 genre(at)tig.com.au "Cross a Goldfish with an Elephant and you get an Elephant ...that never....erm....something" +---------------------------------------+ > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-gaslight(at)MtRoyal.AB.CA > [mailto:owner-gaslight(at)MtRoyal.AB.CA]On Behalf Of > sdavies(at)MtRoyal.AB.CA > Sent: Wednesday, 1 September 1999 02:19 > To: gaslight(at)MtRoyal.AB.CA > Subject: Ten little legionaries > > > I'm wondering how many thought of Agatha Christie when they > read this story, > based on the children's rhyme "Ten little Indians" (or worse, > if you go back to > the original). Was this the first time Christie co-opted > something from the > nursery to create an evil mystery? If so, the inspiration > seems to have been > Wren's in this book _Stepsons of France_ (1917). This was > Wren's sixth book. > > Conversely "Coward of the legion" seems close to an earlier, > better known coward > story _The four feathers_ (1900), but Wren does a much better > job of explaining > the cowardice than A.E.W. Mason had done. > > Wren had served in the French Foreign Legion until the Great > War, at which point > he joined the British army. He was invalided in 1917, at > which point he resumed > a desultory writing career. This seems to be the year he > first tried writing > about the Foreign Legion, but his great success with the > subject didn't come > until several years later. > > In 1924, seven years after his last book, he expanded on the > theme of the > gallant, honourable Englishman under cruel and trying > circumstances in _Beau > Geste_ , which was successful enough to inspire the sequels, > _Beau Sabreur_ > (1926) and _Beau Ideal_ (1927). > > Stephen D > mailto:SDavies(at)mtroyal.ab.ca > >
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Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 09:15:15 -0400 From: Kay Douglas <gwshark(at)erols.com> Subject: Re: Ten little legionaries (OT Nursey Ryme) Craig wrote: >You know I've been thinking that a look at the specific nursery rhymes may >be a nice thing to do, too. > >I know some must ceom from out of period, but some must be in period - and >a look at the events they refer to would be worthwhile too :) This reminded me of something I read recently in May Berenbaum's wonderful book on entomology, BUGS IN THE SYSTEM, about a well-known nursery rhyme that has its origins in the Great Plague of London in the winter of 1664-1665. The rhyme is: Ring around the rosies, A pocketful of posies, A-tishoo! A-tishoo! [Or, in another version: Ashes, ashes] We all fall down. The "rosies" referred to plague buboes, one of the first symptoms of the plague being a rosy rash. The "posies" were the herbs and spices carried to ward off the plague and sweeten the air (as, in the case of malaria, it was "bad air" that was presumed to cause the plague), "a-tishoo!" makes reference to the sneezing and coughing that accompanied the disease, while in the other version "ashes" refers to the many cleansing bonfires. And "we all fall down" is self-explanatory. Grim, isn't it? Berenbaum notes that the mayor of London "unwittingly contributed to the spread of the disease by ordering the extermination of all cats and dogs in the city; rat populations were noticeably larger thereafter." Kay Douglas (moving on now to read Hans Zinsser's Rats, Lice, and History)
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Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 09:04:47 -0700 From: Patricia Teter <PTeter(at)getty.edu> Subject: Re: Ten little legionaries Stephen wrote: <<I'm wondering how many thought of Agatha Christie when they read this story, based on the children's rhyme "Ten little Indians" (or worse, if you go back to the original). >> I've never read Christie's book, but saw the movie made sometime in the late 60s or early 70s. The image of the small Indian figures snapped off their base one by one still sticks in my memory. <g> Does anyone know when the rhyme "Ten Little Indians" was written? Are other stories based on this rhyme as well? <<Wren had served in the French Foreign Legion until the Great War, at which point he joined the British army.>> This explains the realism in Wren's two stories. Did Wren publish short stories in the genre, or just novels? The two stories this week are entertaining and fast paced tales set in exotic desert locations. We have brief glimpses of John Bull (Jean Boule), who stands in for the stalwart Legionnaire, however the main plot of the two stories evolve around retribution and redemption of sorts. I am curious if the John Bull character appears as a major element in other chapters. Thanks, Stephen! Patricia
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Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 10:54:40 -0500 (CDT) From: MISTI Gateway at dsbs32 <postmaster(at)dsbs32.itg.ti.com> Subject: [MISTI/FTM attachment transfer error] The MISTI gateway received the following response when attempting to transfer the attachment files: MSGD537 - TAG=RLPECIAF ID=MS0H FTMU004 - An error was encountered while attempting to send the attachments for the following mail item. The error message is: Receiving 'TIOLR page exists' even after several retries, Call Support. - -******** Original Message ********- MSG SMLW & FROM=MS0H ID=A0000000 TAG=RLPECIAF NONTI=Y To: gaslight(at)MtRoyal.AB.CA <gaslight(at)MtRoyal.AB.CA> From: Patricia Teter <owner-gaslight(at)mtroyal.ab.ca> Subj: Re: Ten little legionaries +---------------------------------------------------------------+ | This message has an attached file that was sent via FTM. If | | the file is not attached to this message, you may use the FTM | | software to download it by browsing received FTM mail and | | looking for the following description: | | Attachment-ID: | +---------------------------------------------------------------+
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Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 18:43:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Donna Goldthwaite <dgold(at)javanet.com> Subject: Re: Ten little legionaries Hi all, Stephen asks: >I'm wondering how many thought of Agatha Christie when they read this story, >based on the children's rhyme "Ten little Indians" (or worse, if you go >back to >the original). Was this the first time Christie co-opted something from the >nursery to create an evil mystery? If so, the inspiration seems to have been >Wren's in this book _Stepsons of France_ (1917). This was Wren's sixth book. Christie used several borrowings from children's rhymes, at least for titles of her books. A shortlist would include: One, Two, Buckle My Shoe (1940) Five Little Pigs (1942) Crooked House (1949) A Pocket Full of Rye (1953) Hickory, Dickory, Dock (1955) Cat among the Pigeons (ok, marginal; 1959) Sorry, I'm just catching up on e-mail. If this has been answered, I shall grovel in abasement (or something). Best, Donna Goldthwaite dgold(at)javanet.com
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Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 19:15:19 -0400 From: Linda Anderson <lpa1(at)ptdprolog.net> Subject: Christie > > Sorry, I'm just catching up on e-mail. If this has been answered, I >shall grovel in abasement (or something). > >Best, > >Donna Goldthwaite >dgold(at)javanet.com ======== Sheesh, Donna! don't stay in debasment! come out and type to us! <G> Linda Anderson
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Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 19:26:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Donna Goldthwaite <dgold(at)javanet.com> Subject: Re: Ten little legionaries >Some Christie titles in addition to Ten Little Indians > >One, Two, Buckle My Shoe - 1940 >Hickory, Dickory Dock 1955 (Hickory Dickory Death in the US) >A Pocket Full of Rye 1953 > OK, OK, I'm groveling. Donna dgold(at)javanet.com
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Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 10:29:29 +1000 From: Craig Walker <genre(at)tig.com.au> Subject: RE: Christie OT Man! I was going to say that too :) > > Sorry, I'm just catching up on e-mail. If this has been > answered, I > >shall grovel in abasement (or something). > > > >Best, > > > >Donna Goldthwaite > >dgold(at)javanet.com > ======== > Sheesh, Donna! don't stay in debasment! come out and type to us! <G> > > > Linda > Anderson Cheers Craig +---------------------------------------+ Craig Walker Genre Manipulations - Reality Engineers Ph: Intl +61 2 9550-0815 Fx: Intl +61 2 9564-5689 Mb: Intl +61 419 22-0013 ICQ: 1053193 genre(at)tig.com.au "Cross a Goldfish with an Elephant and you get an Elephant ...that never....erm....something" +---------------------------------------+
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Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 21:43:08 -0400 From: "John D. Squires" <jdsbooks(at)ameritech.net> Subject: Re: Ten little legionaries The title of one of Shiel's novels may also be based on a nursery rhyme. The Preface to "How the Old Woman Got Home" (1927), reads as follows, "The cat began to kill the rat, the rat began to gnaw the rope, the rope began to hang the butcher ... and so the old woman got home that night". Can anyone tell me the complete rhyme? "Old Woman" is a mystery story, full of Shiel's odd ideas, but was a relative best seller in America going into 4 printings in the Vanguard edition. Collier reprinted it as a paperback in 1961. John Squires Donna Goldthwaite wrote: > Hi all, > > Stephen asks: > > >I'm wondering how many thought of Agatha Christie when they read this story, > >based on the children's rhyme "Ten little Indians" (or worse, if you go > >back to > >the original). Was this the first time Christie co-opted something from the > >nursery to create an evil mystery? If so, the inspiration seems to have been > >Wren's in this book _Stepsons of France_ (1917). This was Wren's sixth book. > > Christie used several borrowings from children's rhymes, at least > for titles of her books. A shortlist would include: > > One, Two, Buckle My Shoe (1940) > Five Little Pigs (1942) > Crooked House (1949) > A Pocket Full of Rye (1953) > Hickory, Dickory, Dock (1955) > Cat among the Pigeons (ok, marginal; 1959) > > Sorry, I'm just catching up on e-mail. If this has been answered, I > shall grovel in abasement (or something). > > Best, > > Donna Goldthwaite > dgold(at)javanet.com
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Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 01:10:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Champ <rchamp(at)polaris.umuc.edu> Subject: Today in History -- Sep 02 Interesting things that happened September 2nd: Birthdays on this date: In 1838 Queen Liliuokalani, last queen of Hawaii (1891-93) In 1839 Henry George, land reformer, writer (Progress and Poverty) In 1853 Wilhelm Ostwald, German physical chemist (Nobel 1909) In 1866 Hiram Johnson, Calif governor, Progressive In 1918 Allan Drury, author + Martha Mitchell, wife of former U.S. Attorney General John Mitchell Events worth noting: In 1804 K. L. Harding discovers Juno, third known asteroid. In 1859 Gas lighting introduced to Hawaii. In 1864 Sherman occupies Atlanta. In 1898 Lord Kitchener retakes Sudan for Britain. In 1924 Rudolf Friml's "Rose Marie" opens to rave reviews in New York City, including the famed "Indian Love Call." (Bob note: Legend has it that a well-known singer of the "Indian Love Call" came to the song's chorus, and never before having seen the "oo-oo-oo-oo, that comprises the call, sang it as "When I'm calling you, double O, double O, double O." )
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Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 07:42:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Zozie(at)aol.com Subject: Re: Today in History -- Sep 02 Also on this day, in 1878, Emma Nutt became the first woman telephone operator... Birthday of Anne Whitney, 1821. She was an American sculptor of some renown, who once was denied a first prize in a competition when the judges discovered she was a woman. Interesting to note that her first work of importance was a life-sized marble statue of Lady Godiva. You go girl! phoebe
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Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 11:01:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Champ <rchamp(at)polaris.umuc.edu> Subject: Re: Today in History -- Sep 02 It's interesting to discover how quickly women became established as telephone operators. I had mention of Emma Nutt on the radio: the announcer said that the job was initially held by men but that they were so rude to customers the telephone company replaced them. In the mid-1888s Mark Twain was writing _A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court_, where the telephone and telegraph are part of the paraphernalia of the modern world that the Yankee imports into 6th century Briton. In the course of the book, Twain has a woman operator, Puss Flanagan, who never makes an appearance but is the Yankee's nineteenth-century sweetheart. Whenever you called up the operator the woman at the other end would say "Hello, Central," a phrase that, in these early days, become almost a name for the operators themselves. In _Connecticut Yankee_, in fact, Hank Morgan eventually has a daughter, by Sandy, whom he names "Hello Central." Bob C. On Thu, 2 Sep 1999 Zozie(at)aol.com wrote: > Also on this day, in 1878, Emma Nutt became the first woman telephone > operator... > _________________________________________________ @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ Robert L. Champ rchamp(at)polaris.umuc.edu Editor, teacher, anglophile, human curiosity Whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy, meditate on these things Philippians 4:8 rchamp7927(at)aol.com robertchamp(at)netscape.net _________________________________________________ @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
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Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 10:34:25 -0500 From: Kiwi Carlisle <carlislc(at)psychiatry1.wustl.edu> Subject: How the Old Woman Got Home John, I couldn't find the text to the English version of the nursery rhyme, but an Americanized version is available at: http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Quad/7135/html_class/littleoldlady.htm Kiwi
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Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 10:38:17 -0500 From: Kiwi Carlisle <carlislc(at)psychiatry1.wustl.edu> Subject: Chat: Ring Around the Rosie I'm afraid that the theory that Ring Around the Rosie is about the plague doesn't hold up on closer examination. See the really excellent web page at: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~imunro/ring.html for more details. It relies heavily on the work of the wonderful folklorist, Philip Hiscock, who has been much quoted here. Kiwi
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Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 12:07:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Zozie(at)aol.com Subject: Re: Re: Today in History -- Sep 02 In a message dated 9/2/99 3:05:31 PM, Bob wrote: <<Whenever you called up the operator the woman at the other end would say "Hello, Central," a phrase that, in these early days, become almost a name for the operators themselves. In _Connecticut Yankee_, in fact, Hank Morgan eventually has a daughter, by Sandy, whom he names "Hello Central.">> This phrase inspired a very popular song "Hello, Central!" If memory is serving me correctly, it was a big hit as sung by Trixie Fraganza. phoebe
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Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 13:52:11 -0400 From: "John D. Squires" <jdsbooks(at)ameritech.net> Subject: Re: How the Old Woman Got Home Thanks, Kiwi!! John Kiwi Carlisle wrote: > John, I couldn't find the text to the English version of the nursery > rhyme, but an Americanized version is available at: > http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Quad/7135/html_class/littleoldlady.htm > > Kiwi
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Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 15:12:16 +0300 From: cbishop(at)interlog.com (Carroll Bishop) Subject: Re: Re: Today in History -- Sep 02 >In a message dated 9/2/99 3:05:31 PM, Bob wrote: > ><<Whenever you called up the operator the >woman at the other end would say "Hello, Central," a phrase that, in these >early days, become almost a name for the operators themselves. In >_Connecticut Yankee_, in fact, Hank Morgan eventually has a daughter, by >Sandy, whom he names "Hello Central.">> > >This phrase inspired a very popular song "Hello, Central!" If memory is >serving me correctly, it was a big hit as sung by Trixie Fraganza. > >phoebe Is this the song with a lyric something like Hello, Central, give me a line Calling Bryant 709 (?).... That's all I can get right now, except the tune...that part of it anyway... Carroll
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Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 15:15:09 +0300 From: cbishop(at)interlog.com (Carroll Bishop) Subject: Re: How the Old Woman Got Home What, no stories quoting or based on that strange tale, Who Killed Cock Robin? (Was it I, Lord?) Carroll
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Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 14:22:20 -0500 From: Ann Hilgeman <eahilg(at)seark.net> Subject: Hello Central And of course, there's always "Hello, Central, give me Heaven," which I think is a Gaslight era song in which a child tries to telephone his dead mother. Ann Hilgeman
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Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 12:48:41 -0700 From: "Jesse F. Knight" <jknight(at)internetcds.com> Subject: Re: Ten little legionaries What struck me about the two legionnaire stories was their utter brutality. For those (like me) who think that brutality is confined to modern movies and books, these stories sure were an eye-opener. I imagine the audience of 1917 was ill-prepared for them, as well. Jesse F. Knight
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Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 13:02:45 -0700 From: Deborah McMillion Nering <deborah(at)alice.gloaming.com> Subject: Re: Ten little legionaries their utter brutality. For those (like me) who think that brutality is confined to modern movies and books Since we've been speaking of children's rhymes, it isn't a far step to speak of children's fairy tales as far as brutality goes. The original versions that is. I just scanned one yesterday that had 3 girls abandoned by their parents because there wasn't enough food, etc, with a giant, an exchange that causes the giant to eat his own daughters, etc. This is a lightweight one compared to the original ending to Tom Thumb (sucked dry by spider) and my favorite and one we've discussed before "Mr. Fox", another Bluebeard type story. And lets not forget Bluebeard. And my ever favorite one is from a series of Victorian morality tales for children, the Farleigh family adventures. Little girl looks in a mirror at herself and sets herself on fire with the candle in her hand and burns to death as a lesson in vanity. BRR! Deborah Deborah McMillion deborah(at)gloaming.com http://www.gloaming.com/deborah.html
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Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 13:17:04 -0700 From: "Jesse F. Knight" <jknight(at)internetcds.com> Subject: Re: Ten little legionaries > Since we've been speaking of children's rhymes, it isn't a far step > to speak of children's fairy tales as far as brutality goes Interestingly enough, I was in Copenhagen a month or so ago and picked up a volume of Hans Christian Anderson Fairy Tales. There are plenty of tales in there that end tragically too. Now in Anderson's case, he meant his stories as much for adults as for children. But I'm not quite sure what the purpose of horrific children's fairy tales were, unless, as you say, they were meant as morality plays or perhaps just to prepare youngsters for the harsh realities of life. (Gulp! Give me Superman any time!) Jesse F. Knight
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Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 14:32:25 -0600 (MDT) From: "p.h.wood" <woodph(at)freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> Subject: Re: Childrens' rhymes Robert Graves has a fascinating essay on this subject in his book "The Crowning Privilege", entitled "Mother Goose's Lost Goslings". If any Gaslighters know the rhyme: "Grey goose and gander, Waft your wings together And carry the king's daughter Over the one-strand river", take a look at Graves's analysis of its possible origin. There is a great deal more than this one example, as always with Robert Graves's work; I had not realised how many childrens' rhymes can probably be traced to military bugle-calls, but his arguments for this are convincing. Of course such rhymes are still being made up: sometime ago on <uk.misc> n/g, someone reported a Teletubby rhyme they had heard in a schoolyard in London. Within a week it was reported from as far afield as Newcastle. To the tune of "Nick-nack-paddywhack, Give the dog a bone", it goes: "I hate Po, Po hates me, Po tied Dipsy to a tree. Tinky-Winky shot her in the head, Sorry, Laa-Laa, Dipsy's dead." Brutality in the young is still alive and flourishing... Peter Wood
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Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 15:49:30 -0500 From: Kiwi Carlisle <carlislc(at)psychiatry1.wustl.edu> Subject: Re: Hello, Central Ann Hilgeman wrote: > And of course, there's always "Hello, Central, give me Heaven," which I >think is a Gaslight era song in which a child tries to telephone his dead >mother. There's also "Hello, Central, give me Dr. Jazz", and "Hello Central, give me Mama". It's a common theme. Kiwi Carlisle
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Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 14:29:17 -0700 From: Deborah McMillion Nering <deborah(at)alice.gloaming.com> Subject: children's rhymes and 10 Legionnaires >But I'm not quite sure what the purpose of horrific children's fairy >tales were, unless, as you say, they were meant as morality plays or I remember from an old concert record by Peter, Paul and Mary there were three purposes to old folk songs: "repetition, to give a false sense of security and tragedy to prepare the child for later traumatic experiences". (sorry, can't remember the third and I would be grateful is someone did know) Deborah Deborah McMillion deborah(at)gloaming.com http://www.gloaming.com/deborah.html
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Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 17:32:55 -0400 From: Linda Anderson <lpa1(at)ptdprolog.net> Subject: Re: Hello, Central don't forget the prison version by Willie Nelson: "Hello, Walls" At 03:49 PM 09/02/1999 -0500, you wrote: >Ann Hilgeman wrote: >> And of course, there's always "Hello, Central, give me Heaven," which I >>think is a Gaslight era song in which a child tries to telephone his dead >>mother. > >There's also "Hello, Central, give me Dr. Jazz", and "Hello Central, >give me Mama". It's a common theme. > >Kiwi Carlisle ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 18:50:01 -0400 From: Kay Douglas <gwshark(at)erols.com> Subject: Re: Chat: Ring Around the Rosie You know, I'm beginning to suspect that half the "interesting" stories I read or hear are folk mythology. In this case, however, I let the credentials of the author telling the story (eminent entomologist May Berenbaum) persuade me of the truth of it. I'd previously assumed that Ring Around the Rosie was just a nonsense verse and it seems I should have stuck with that initial impression. Thanks for setting the record straight, Kiwi! Kay Douglas >I'm afraid that the theory that Ring Around the Rosie is about >the plague doesn't hold up on closer examination. See the >really excellent web page at: >http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~imunro/ring.html >for more details. It relies heavily on the work of the wonderful >folklorist, Philip Hiscock, who has been much quoted here. > >Kiwi ------------------------------ End of Gaslight Digest V1 #93 *****************************