Gaslight Digest Thursday, September 2 1999 Volume 01 : Number 093


In this issue:


   Today in History -- Aug 30
   Today in History -- Aug 31
   Ten little legionaries
   Book source
   Re: Ten little legionaries
   Re: Ten little legionaries
   Today in History -- Sep 01
   RE: Ten little legionaries
   Re: Ten little legionaries (OT Nursey Ryme)
   Re: Ten little legionaries
   [MISTI/FTM attachment transfer error]
   Re: Ten little legionaries
   Christie
   Re: Ten little legionaries
   RE: Christie
   Re: Ten little legionaries
   Today in History -- Sep 02
   Re:  Today in History -- Sep 02
   Re:  Today in History -- Sep 02
   How the Old Woman Got Home
   Chat:  Ring Around the Rosie
   Re:  Re:  Today in History -- Sep 02
   Re: How the Old Woman Got Home
   Re:  Re:  Today in History -- Sep 02
   Re: How the Old Woman Got Home
   Hello Central
   Re: Ten little legionaries
   Re: Ten little legionaries
   Re: Ten little legionaries
   Re: Childrens' rhymes
   Re: Hello, Central
   children's rhymes and 10 Legionnaires
   Re: Hello, Central
   Re: Chat:  Ring Around the Rosie

-----------------------------THE POSTS-----------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 01:15:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Champ <rchamp(at)polaris.umuc.edu>
Subject: Today in History -- Aug 30

Interesting things that happened August 30th:

Birthdays on this date:
  In 1797 Mary Shelley, author (Frankenstein)
  In 1837 Ellen Lewis Herndon Arthur, wife of president Chester A. Arthur
  In 1871 Ernest Rutherford (in England), physicist
  In 1884 Theodor Svedberg, Swedish chemist, worked with colloids (Nobel '26)
  In 1893 Huey P. Long, Louisiana Governor
  In 1896 Raymond Massey, actor
  In 1901 John Gunther, writer
        + Roy Wilkins, director of NAACP
  In 1907 Shirley Booth (in New York), actor (Hazel)
  In 1908 Fred MacMurray, actor (Caine Mutiny, My Three Sons)
  In 1909 Joan Blondell (in New York)
  In 1918 Ted Williams, baseball great


Events worth noting:
  In 1850 Honolulu, Hawaii becomes a city.
  In 1862 Battle of Richmond, KY.
        + Battle of Second Manassas - Pope defeated by Lee.
  In 1906 Hal Chase became first Yank to hit 3 triples in a game.
  In 1910 Yank Tom Hughes pitches 9 no hit innings but loses 5-0 in the 11th.

I read recently that a team of doctors in the US has successfully
perfected the technique, in animals, of removing heads and attaching them
to other bodies--an operation that involves lowering brain temperature to
prevent serious cell damage.  The next step is to try the operation on
humans. Mary Shelley, in her _Frankenstein_, was more prescient than she
could ever have believed. [BC]

===0===



Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 00:31:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Champ <rchamp(at)polaris.umuc.edu>
Subject: Today in History -- Aug 31

Interesting things that happened August 31st:

Birthdays on this date:
  In 1870 Maria Montessori, educator
  In 1903 Arthur Godfrey, radio, TV host
        + Sir Bernard Lovell, English radio astronomer, founded Jodrell Bank
  In 1908 William Saroyan, novelist, playwright (Time of Your Life)
  In 1918 Alan Jay Lerner, composer

Events worth noting:
  In 1842 US Naval Observatory is authorized by an act of Congress.
  In 1864 Atlanta Campaign - Battle of Jonesborough.
  In 1886 First major earthquake recorded in eastern US, atCharleston, S.C.
  In 1895 John Brailier becomes the first "pro" football player when he
          receives $10 for expenses in a game at Latrobe, Pennsylvania.

You can always tell from the number of posts at Gaslight when a new
semester has begun.  To all the academics out there--good luck with your
classes this fall!

Bob C.

===0===



Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 10:18:58 -0600
From: sdavies(at)MtRoyal.AB.CA
Subject: Ten little legionaries

I'm wondering how many thought of Agatha Christie when they read this story,
based on the children's rhyme "Ten little Indians" (or worse, if you go back to
the original).  Was this the first time Christie co-opted something from the
nursery to create an evil mystery?  If so, the inspiration seems to have been
Wren's in this book _Stepsons of France_ (1917).  This was Wren's sixth book.

Conversely "Coward of the legion" seems close to an earlier, better known coward
story _The four feathers_ (1900), but Wren does a much better job of explaining
the cowardice than A.E.W. Mason had done.

Wren had served in the French Foreign Legion until the Great War, at which point
he joined the British army.  He was invalided in 1917, at which point he resumed
a desultory writing career.  This seems to be the year he first tried writing
about the Foreign Legion, but his great success with the subject didn't come
until several years later.

In 1924, seven years after his last book, he expanded on the theme of the
gallant, honourable Englishman under cruel and trying circumstances in _Beau
Geste_ , which was successful enough to inspire the sequels, _Beau Sabreur_
(1926) and _Beau Ideal_ (1927).

                                   Stephen D
                          mailto:SDavies(at)mtroyal.ab.ca

===0===



Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 13:22:17 -0400
From: "Roberts, Leonard" <lroberts(at)email.uncc.edu>
Subject: Book source

Here is a source in England of books some of which are in the Gaslight era.
The website is named Books at Sixpence which is definitely not a description
of the prices. Printed ephemera were also listed.

The URL is:

 http://www.Sixpence.demon.co.uk/

Len Roberts

===0===



Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 10:29:50 -0700
From: Deborah McMillion Nering <deborah(at)alice.gloaming.com>
Subject: Re: Ten little legionaries

>Was this the first time Christie co-opted something from the
>nursery to create an evil mystery?

Wasn't there a Miss Marple story called "Pocketful of Rye" based on
the nursery rhyme "Sing a Song of Sixpence"?

Deborah

Deborah McMillion
deborah(at)gloaming.com
http://www.gloaming.com/deborah.html

===0===



Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 12:33:38 -0500
From: Ann Hilgeman <eahilg(at)seark.net>
Subject: Re: Ten little legionaries

Some Christie titles in addition to Ten Little Indians

One, Two, Buckle My Shoe - 1940
Hickory, Dickory Dock 1955 (Hickory Dickory Death in the US)
A Pocket Full of Rye 1953

Ann Hilgeman

===0===



Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 00:17:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Champ <rchamp(at)polaris.umuc.edu>
Subject: Today in History -- Sep 01

Interesting things that happened September 1st:

Birthdays on this date:
  In 1791 Lydia Sigourney, American religious author (How to Be Happy)
  In 1854 Engelbert Humperdinck, German opera composer (Hansel und Gretl)
  In 1866 James "Gentleman Jim" Corbett, prize fighter
  In 1875 Edgar Rice Burroughs, novelist (Tarzan)
  In 1904 Ray Flaherty, AFL, NFL, AAFC coach
  In 1907 Walter Reuther, labor leader, president of UAW and CIO

[Bob note; A religious leader in 19th-century America wrote a "how-to"
book?  Godfrey Daniels!)

Events worth noting:
  In 1807 Aaron Burr aquitted of charges of plotting to set up an empire.
  In 1859 First pullman sleeping car in service.
        + R. C. Carrington and R. Hodgson make the first observation of solar
          flare.
  In 1862 Severe action at Chantilly, Virginia.
  In 1864 Sherman's march through Georgia begins.
  In 1870 Napoleon III captured at Sedan.
  In 1878 First woman telephone operator starts work (Emma Nutt in Boston).
  In 1890 First baseball tripleheader - Boston vs Pittsburgh.
  In 1896 Chop Suey is devised to appeal to both American and Chinese tastes.
          The word means 'hash' in Chinese.
  In 1905 Alberta and Saskatchewan become 8th and 9th Canadian provinces.
  In 1906 Jack Combs pitches 24 inninings beating the Red Sox.
  In 1911 M. Fourny sets world aircraft distance record of 720 km.
  In 1914 Martha, last known passenger pigeon, dies at Cincinnati Zoo.
  In 1918 U.S. troops land in Vladivostok, Siberia, stay until 1920.
  In 1923 Earthquake struck Tokyo, estimated 74,000 people died.

===0===



Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 17:54:03 +1000
From: Craig Walker <genre(at)tig.com.au>
Subject: RE: Ten little legionaries

Hi there,

You know I've been thinking that a look at the specific nursery rhymes may
be a nice thing to do, too.

I know some must ceom from out of period, but some must be in period - and a
look at the events they refer to would be worthwhile too :)

Of course - this may well have been done already - if so, I'll pull my head
back in.

Cheers

Craig

+---------------------------------------+
              Craig Walker
 Genre Manipulations - Reality Engineers

        Ph: Intl +61 2  9550-0815
        Fx: Intl +61 2  9564-5689
        Mb: Intl +61 419  22-0013
              ICQ: 1053193
             genre(at)tig.com.au

   "Cross a Goldfish with an Elephant
     and you get an Elephant ...that
        never....erm....something"
+---------------------------------------+



> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-gaslight(at)MtRoyal.AB.CA
> [mailto:owner-gaslight(at)MtRoyal.AB.CA]On Behalf Of
> sdavies(at)MtRoyal.AB.CA
> Sent: Wednesday, 1 September 1999 02:19
> To: gaslight(at)MtRoyal.AB.CA
> Subject: Ten little legionaries
>
>
> I'm wondering how many thought of Agatha Christie when they
> read this story,
> based on the children's rhyme "Ten little Indians" (or worse,
> if you go back to
> the original).  Was this the first time Christie co-opted
> something from the
> nursery to create an evil mystery?  If so, the inspiration
> seems to have been
> Wren's in this book _Stepsons of France_ (1917).  This was
> Wren's sixth book.
>
> Conversely "Coward of the legion" seems close to an earlier,
> better known coward
> story _The four feathers_ (1900), but Wren does a much better
> job of explaining
> the cowardice than A.E.W. Mason had done.
>
> Wren had served in the French Foreign Legion until the Great
> War, at which point
> he joined the British army.  He was invalided in 1917, at
> which point he resumed
> a desultory writing career.  This seems to be the year he
> first tried writing
> about the Foreign Legion, but his great success with the
> subject didn't come
> until several years later.
>
> In 1924, seven years after his last book, he expanded on the
> theme of the
> gallant, honourable Englishman under cruel and trying
> circumstances in _Beau
> Geste_ , which was successful enough to inspire the sequels,
> _Beau Sabreur_
> (1926) and _Beau Ideal_ (1927).
>
>                                    Stephen D
>                           mailto:SDavies(at)mtroyal.ab.ca
>
>

===0===



Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 09:15:15 -0400
From: Kay Douglas <gwshark(at)erols.com>
Subject: Re: Ten little legionaries (OT Nursey Ryme)

Craig wrote:

>You know I've been thinking that a look at the specific nursery rhymes may
>be a nice thing to do, too.
>
>I know some must ceom from out of period, but some must be in period - and
>a look at the events they refer to would be worthwhile too :)

This reminded me of something I read recently in May Berenbaum's wonderful
book on entomology, BUGS IN THE SYSTEM, about a well-known nursery rhyme
that has its origins in the Great Plague of London in the winter of
1664-1665.  The rhyme is:

Ring around the rosies,
A pocketful of posies,
A-tishoo!  A-tishoo!
[Or, in another version: Ashes, ashes]
We all fall down.

The "rosies" referred to plague buboes, one of the first symptoms of the
plague being a rosy rash.  The "posies" were the herbs and spices carried to
ward off the plague and sweeten the air (as, in the case of malaria, it was
"bad air" that was presumed to cause the plague), "a-tishoo!" makes
reference to the sneezing and coughing that accompanied the disease, while
in the other version "ashes"  refers to the many cleansing bonfires.  And
"we all fall down" is self-explanatory.

Grim, isn't it?

Berenbaum notes that the mayor of London "unwittingly contributed to the
spread of the disease by ordering the extermination of all cats and dogs in
the city; rat populations were noticeably larger thereafter."

Kay Douglas
(moving on now to read Hans Zinsser's Rats, Lice, and History)

===0===



Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 09:04:47 -0700
From: Patricia Teter <PTeter(at)getty.edu>
Subject: Re: Ten little legionaries

Stephen wrote:
<<I'm wondering how many thought of Agatha Christie when they read this story,
based on the children's rhyme "Ten little Indians" (or worse, if you go back to
the original). >>

I've never read Christie's book, but saw the movie made sometime
in the late 60s or early 70s.  The image of the small Indian figures
snapped off their base one by one still sticks in my memory. <g>
Does anyone know when the rhyme "Ten Little Indians" was written?
Are other stories based on this rhyme as well?

<<Wren had served in the French Foreign Legion until the Great War,
at which point he joined the British army.>>

This explains the realism in Wren's two stories.  Did Wren publish
short stories in the genre, or just novels?  The two stories this
week are entertaining and fast paced tales set in exotic desert
locations.  We have brief glimpses of John Bull (Jean Boule), who
stands in for the stalwart Legionnaire, however the main plot of the two
stories evolve around retribution and redemption of sorts.  I am
curious if the John Bull character appears as a major element in
other chapters.

Thanks, Stephen!

Patricia


===0===



Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 10:54:40 -0500 (CDT)
From: MISTI Gateway at dsbs32 <postmaster(at)dsbs32.itg.ti.com>
Subject: [MISTI/FTM attachment transfer error]

The MISTI gateway received the following response when attempting to transfer 
the attachment files:

MSGD537 - TAG=RLPECIAF ID=MS0H
FTMU004 - An error was encountered while attempting to send
          the attachments for the following mail item.

          The error message is:
          Receiving 'TIOLR page exists' even after several retries, Call 
Support.

- -******** Original Message ********-

MSG         SMLW &
FROM=MS0H ID=A0000000 TAG=RLPECIAF NONTI=Y

  To: gaslight(at)MtRoyal.AB.CA            <gaslight(at)MtRoyal.AB.CA>

From: Patricia Teter                    <owner-gaslight(at)mtroyal.ab.ca>

Subj:  Re: Ten little legionaries

+---------------------------------------------------------------+
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===0===



Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 18:43:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: Donna Goldthwaite <dgold(at)javanet.com>
Subject: Re: Ten little legionaries

Hi all,

 Stephen asks:

>I'm wondering how many thought of Agatha Christie when they read this story,
>based on the children's rhyme "Ten little Indians" (or worse, if you go
>back to
>the original).  Was this the first time Christie co-opted something from the
>nursery to create an evil mystery?  If so, the inspiration seems to have been
>Wren's in this book _Stepsons of France_ (1917).  This was Wren's sixth book.


 Christie used several borrowings from children's rhymes, at least
for titles of her books. A shortlist would include:

One, Two, Buckle My Shoe (1940)
Five Little Pigs (1942)
Crooked House (1949)
A Pocket Full of Rye (1953)
Hickory, Dickory, Dock (1955)
Cat among the Pigeons (ok, marginal; 1959)

 Sorry, I'm just catching up on e-mail. If this has been answered, I
shall grovel in abasement (or something).

Best,

Donna Goldthwaite
dgold(at)javanet.com

===0===



Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 19:15:19 -0400
From: Linda Anderson <lpa1(at)ptdprolog.net>
Subject: Christie

>
> Sorry, I'm just catching up on e-mail. If this has been answered, I
>shall grovel in abasement (or something).
>
>Best,
>
>Donna Goldthwaite
>dgold(at)javanet.com
========
Sheesh, Donna!  don't stay in debasment!  come out and type to us! <G>


Linda
Anderson

===0===



Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 19:26:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: Donna Goldthwaite <dgold(at)javanet.com>
Subject: Re: Ten little legionaries

>Some Christie titles in addition to Ten Little Indians
>
>One, Two, Buckle My Shoe - 1940
>Hickory, Dickory Dock 1955 (Hickory Dickory Death in the US)
>A Pocket Full of Rye 1953
>


 OK, OK, I'm groveling.

Donna
dgold(at)javanet.com

===0===



Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 10:29:29 +1000
From: Craig Walker <genre(at)tig.com.au>
Subject: RE: Christie

OT

Man! I was going to say that too :)

> > Sorry, I'm just catching up on e-mail. If this has been
> answered, I
> >shall grovel in abasement (or something).
> >
> >Best,
> >
> >Donna Goldthwaite
> >dgold(at)javanet.com
> ========
> Sheesh, Donna!  don't stay in debasment!  come out and type to us! <G>
>
>
> Linda
> Anderson

Cheers

Craig
+---------------------------------------+
              Craig Walker
 Genre Manipulations - Reality Engineers

        Ph: Intl +61 2  9550-0815
        Fx: Intl +61 2  9564-5689
        Mb: Intl +61 419  22-0013
              ICQ: 1053193
             genre(at)tig.com.au

   "Cross a Goldfish with an Elephant
     and you get an Elephant ...that
        never....erm....something"
+---------------------------------------+

===0===



Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 21:43:08 -0400
From: "John D. Squires" <jdsbooks(at)ameritech.net>
Subject: Re: Ten little legionaries

The title of one of Shiel's novels may also be based on a nursery
rhyme.  The Preface to "How the Old Woman Got Home" (1927),
reads as follows, "The cat began to kill the rat, the rat began to
gnaw the rope, the rope began to hang the butcher ... and so the
old woman got home that night".  Can anyone tell me the complete
rhyme?  "Old Woman" is a mystery story, full of Shiel's odd ideas,
but was a relative best seller in America going into 4 printings in the
Vanguard edition.  Collier reprinted it as a paperback in 1961.
    John Squires

Donna Goldthwaite wrote:

> Hi all,
>
>         Stephen asks:
>
> >I'm wondering how many thought of Agatha Christie when they read this story,
> >based on the children's rhyme "Ten little Indians" (or worse, if you go
> >back to
> >the original).  Was this the first time Christie co-opted something from the
> >nursery to create an evil mystery?  If so, the inspiration seems to have been
> >Wren's in this book _Stepsons of France_ (1917).  This was Wren's sixth book.
>
>         Christie used several borrowings from children's rhymes, at least
> for titles of her books. A shortlist would include:
>
> One, Two, Buckle My Shoe (1940)
> Five Little Pigs (1942)
> Crooked House (1949)
> A Pocket Full of Rye (1953)
> Hickory, Dickory, Dock (1955)
> Cat among the Pigeons (ok, marginal; 1959)
>
>         Sorry, I'm just catching up on e-mail. If this has been answered, I
> shall grovel in abasement (or something).
>
> Best,
>
> Donna Goldthwaite
> dgold(at)javanet.com

===0===



Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 01:10:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Champ <rchamp(at)polaris.umuc.edu>
Subject: Today in History -- Sep 02

Interesting things that happened September 2nd:

Birthdays on this date:
  In 1838 Queen Liliuokalani, last queen of Hawaii (1891-93)
  In 1839 Henry George, land reformer, writer (Progress and Poverty)
  In 1853 Wilhelm Ostwald, German physical chemist (Nobel 1909)
  In 1866 Hiram Johnson, Calif governor, Progressive
  In 1918 Allan Drury, author
        + Martha Mitchell, wife of former U.S. Attorney General John Mitchell

Events worth noting:

  In 1804 K. L. Harding discovers Juno, third known asteroid.
  In 1859 Gas lighting introduced to Hawaii.
  In 1864 Sherman occupies Atlanta.
  In 1898 Lord Kitchener retakes Sudan for Britain.
  In 1924 Rudolf Friml's "Rose Marie" opens to rave reviews in New York City,
          including the famed "Indian Love Call."

(Bob note: Legend has it that a well-known singer of the "Indian Love
Call" came to the song's chorus, and never before having seen the
"oo-oo-oo-oo, that comprises the call, sang it as "When I'm calling
you, double O, double O, double O." )

===0===



Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 07:42:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: Zozie(at)aol.com
Subject: Re:  Today in History -- Sep 02

Also on this day, in 1878, Emma Nutt became the first woman telephone
operator...

Birthday of Anne Whitney, 1821.  She was an American sculptor of some renown,
who once was denied a first prize in a competition when the judges discovered
she was a woman.   Interesting to note that her first work of importance was
a life-sized marble statue of Lady Godiva.  You go girl!

phoebe

===0===



Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 11:01:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Champ <rchamp(at)polaris.umuc.edu>
Subject: Re:  Today in History -- Sep 02

It's interesting to discover how quickly women became established as
telephone operators.  I had mention of Emma Nutt on the radio: the
announcer said that the job was initially held by men but that they were
so rude to customers the telephone company replaced them.

In the mid-1888s Mark Twain was writing _A Connecticut Yankee in King
Arthur's Court_, where the telephone and telegraph are part of the
paraphernalia of the modern world that the Yankee imports into 6th century
Briton.  In the course of the book, Twain has a woman operator, Puss
Flanagan, who never makes an appearance but is the Yankee's
nineteenth-century sweetheart.  Whenever you called up the operator the
woman at the other end would say "Hello, Central," a phrase that, in these
early days, become almost a name for the operators themselves.  In
_Connecticut Yankee_, in fact, Hank Morgan eventually has a daughter, by
Sandy, whom he names "Hello Central."

Bob C.


On Thu, 2 Sep 1999 Zozie(at)aol.com wrote:

> Also on this day, in 1878, Emma Nutt became the first woman telephone
> operator...
>


_________________________________________________
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Robert L. Champ
rchamp(at)polaris.umuc.edu
Editor, teacher, anglophile, human curiosity

Whatever things are pure, whatever things are
lovely, whatever things are of good report, if
there is any virtue and if there is anything
praiseworthy, meditate on these things
                                 Philippians 4:8

rchamp7927(at)aol.com       robertchamp(at)netscape.net
_________________________________________________
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

===0===



Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 10:34:25 -0500
From: Kiwi Carlisle <carlislc(at)psychiatry1.wustl.edu>
Subject: How the Old Woman Got Home

John, I couldn't find the text to the English version of the nursery
rhyme, but an Americanized version is available at:
http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Quad/7135/html_class/littleoldlady.htm

Kiwi

===0===



Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 10:38:17 -0500
From: Kiwi Carlisle <carlislc(at)psychiatry1.wustl.edu>
Subject: Chat:  Ring Around the Rosie

I'm afraid that the theory that Ring Around the Rosie is about
the plague doesn't hold up on closer examination.  See the
really excellent web page at:
http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~imunro/ring.html
for more details.  It relies heavily on the work of the wonderful
folklorist, Philip Hiscock, who has been much quoted here.

Kiwi

===0===



Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 12:07:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: Zozie(at)aol.com
Subject: Re:  Re:  Today in History -- Sep 02

In a message dated 9/2/99 3:05:31 PM, Bob wrote:

<<Whenever you called up the operator the
woman at the other end would say "Hello, Central," a phrase that, in these
early days, become almost a name for the operators themselves.  In
_Connecticut Yankee_, in fact, Hank Morgan eventually has a daughter, by
Sandy, whom he names "Hello Central.">>

This phrase inspired a very popular song "Hello, Central!"  If memory is
serving me correctly, it was a big hit as sung by Trixie Fraganza.

phoebe

===0===



Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 13:52:11 -0400
From: "John D. Squires" <jdsbooks(at)ameritech.net>
Subject: Re: How the Old Woman Got Home

Thanks, Kiwi!!
John

Kiwi Carlisle wrote:

> John, I couldn't find the text to the English version of the nursery
> rhyme, but an Americanized version is available at:
> http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Quad/7135/html_class/littleoldlady.htm
>
> Kiwi

===0===



Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 15:12:16 +0300
From: cbishop(at)interlog.com (Carroll Bishop)
Subject: Re:  Re:  Today in History -- Sep 02

>In a message dated 9/2/99 3:05:31 PM, Bob wrote:
>
><<Whenever you called up the operator the
>woman at the other end would say "Hello, Central," a phrase that, in these
>early days, become almost a name for the operators themselves.  In
>_Connecticut Yankee_, in fact, Hank Morgan eventually has a daughter, by
>Sandy, whom he names "Hello Central.">>
>
>This phrase inspired a very popular song "Hello, Central!"  If memory is
>serving me correctly, it was a big hit as sung by Trixie Fraganza.
>
>phoebe

Is this the song with a lyric something like

Hello, Central, give me a line
Calling Bryant 709 (?)....

That's all I can get right now, except the tune...that part of it
anyway...

Carroll

===0===



Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 15:15:09 +0300
From: cbishop(at)interlog.com (Carroll Bishop)
Subject: Re: How the Old Woman Got Home

What, no stories quoting or based on that strange tale,
Who Killed Cock Robin?  (Was it I, Lord?)

Carroll

===0===



Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 14:22:20 -0500
From: Ann Hilgeman <eahilg(at)seark.net>
Subject: Hello Central

And of course, there's always "Hello, Central, give me Heaven," which I
think is a Gaslight era song in which a child tries to telephone his dead
mother.

Ann Hilgeman

===0===



Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 12:48:41 -0700
From: "Jesse F. Knight" <jknight(at)internetcds.com>
Subject: Re: Ten little legionaries

    What struck me about the two legionnaire stories was their utter
brutality.  For those (like me) who think that brutality is confined to
modern movies and books, these stories sure were an eye-opener.  I imagine
the audience of 1917 was ill-prepared for them, as well.

Jesse F. Knight

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Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 13:02:45 -0700
From: Deborah McMillion Nering <deborah(at)alice.gloaming.com>
Subject: Re: Ten little legionaries

their utter brutality.  For those (like me) who think that brutality
is confined to modern movies and books

Since we've been speaking of children's rhymes, it isn't a far step
to speak of children's fairy tales as far as brutality goes.  The
original versions that is.  I just scanned one yesterday that had 3
girls abandoned by their parents because there wasn't enough food,
etc, with a giant, an exchange that causes the giant to eat his own
daughters, etc. This is a lightweight one compared to the original
ending to Tom Thumb (sucked dry by spider) and my favorite and one
we've discussed before "Mr. Fox", another Bluebeard type story.  And
lets not forget Bluebeard.

And my ever favorite one is from a series of Victorian morality tales
for children, the Farleigh family adventures.  Little girl looks in a
mirror at herself and sets herself on fire with the candle in her
hand and burns to death as a lesson in vanity.  BRR!

Deborah

Deborah McMillion
deborah(at)gloaming.com
http://www.gloaming.com/deborah.html

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Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 13:17:04 -0700
From: "Jesse F. Knight" <jknight(at)internetcds.com>
Subject: Re: Ten little legionaries

> Since we've been speaking of children's rhymes, it isn't a far step
> to speak of children's fairy tales as far as brutality goes

    Interestingly enough, I was in Copenhagen a month or so ago and picked
up a volume of Hans Christian Anderson Fairy Tales.  There are plenty of
tales in there that end tragically too.

    Now in Anderson's case, he meant his stories as much for adults as for
children.  But I'm not quite sure what the purpose of horrific children's
fairy tales were, unless, as you say, they were meant as morality plays or
perhaps just to prepare youngsters for the harsh realities of life.  (Gulp!
Give me Superman any time!)

Jesse F. Knight

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Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 14:32:25 -0600 (MDT)
From: "p.h.wood" <woodph(at)freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Subject: Re: Childrens' rhymes

Robert Graves has a fascinating essay on this subject in his book "The
Crowning Privilege", entitled "Mother Goose's Lost Goslings".
If any Gaslighters know the rhyme:
 "Grey goose and gander,
 Waft your wings together
 And carry the king's daughter
 Over the one-strand river",
take a look at Graves's analysis of its possible origin.
There is a great deal more than this one example, as always with Robert
Graves's work; I had not realised how many childrens' rhymes can probably
be traced to military bugle-calls, but his arguments for this are
convincing.
Of course such rhymes are still being made up: sometime ago on <uk.misc>
n/g, someone reported a Teletubby rhyme they had heard in a schoolyard in
London. Within a week it was reported from as far afield as Newcastle.
To the tune of "Nick-nack-paddywhack, Give the dog a bone", it goes:
 "I hate Po, Po hates me,
 Po tied Dipsy to a tree.
 Tinky-Winky shot her in the head,
 Sorry, Laa-Laa, Dipsy's dead."

Brutality in the young is still alive and flourishing...
Peter Wood

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Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 15:49:30 -0500
From: Kiwi Carlisle <carlislc(at)psychiatry1.wustl.edu>
Subject: Re: Hello, Central

Ann Hilgeman wrote:
> And of course, there's always "Hello, Central, give me Heaven," which I
>think is a Gaslight era song in which a child tries to telephone his dead
>mother.

There's also "Hello, Central, give me Dr. Jazz", and "Hello Central,
give me Mama".  It's a common theme.

Kiwi Carlisle

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Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 14:29:17 -0700
From: Deborah McMillion Nering <deborah(at)alice.gloaming.com>
Subject: children's rhymes and 10 Legionnaires

>But I'm not quite sure what the purpose of horrific children's fairy
>tales were, unless, as you say, they were meant as morality plays or

I remember from an old concert record by Peter, Paul and Mary there
were three purposes to old folk songs:  "repetition, to give a false
sense of security and tragedy to prepare the child for later
traumatic experiences".   (sorry, can't remember the third and I
would be grateful is someone did know)

Deborah

Deborah McMillion
deborah(at)gloaming.com
http://www.gloaming.com/deborah.html

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Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 17:32:55 -0400
From: Linda Anderson <lpa1(at)ptdprolog.net>
Subject: Re: Hello, Central

don't forget the prison version by Willie Nelson:  "Hello, Walls"


At 03:49 PM 09/02/1999 -0500, you wrote:
>Ann Hilgeman wrote:
>> And of course, there's always "Hello, Central, give me Heaven," which I
>>think is a Gaslight era song in which a child tries to telephone his dead
>>mother.
>
>There's also "Hello, Central, give me Dr. Jazz", and "Hello Central,
>give me Mama".  It's a common theme.
>
>Kiwi Carlisle

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 18:50:01 -0400
From: Kay Douglas <gwshark(at)erols.com>
Subject: Re: Chat:  Ring Around the Rosie

You know, I'm beginning to suspect that half the "interesting" stories I
read or hear are folk mythology. In this case, however, I let the
credentials of the author telling the story (eminent entomologist May
Berenbaum) persuade me of the truth of it.  I'd previously assumed that Ring
Around the Rosie was just a nonsense verse and it seems I should have stuck
with that initial impression.  Thanks for setting the record straight, Kiwi!

Kay Douglas

>I'm afraid that the theory that Ring Around the Rosie is about
>the plague doesn't hold up on closer examination.  See the
>really excellent web page at:
>http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~imunro/ring.html
>for more details.  It relies heavily on the work of the wonderful
>folklorist, Philip Hiscock, who has been much quoted here.
>
>Kiwi

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End of Gaslight Digest V1 #93
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