In this issue: Re: Today in History - Nov. 6 Re: Libraries Re: Re: Libraries Re: Libraries Black Sunday Re: Libraries John Buchan and the Merry Masons Re: Libraries Re: Libraries Re: Black Sunday Re: Libraries Re: Libraries & the Digital Re: Libraries Re: Etext avail: Charles E. Van Loan's "Tales of the Midnight Club" Re: Libraries Re: Libraries Re: Libraries Re: Re: Libraries instant books Re: Libraries Re: Libraries RE: Libraries chat: instant books Re: chat: instant books Re: chat: instant books -----------------------------THE POSTS----------------------------- Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 13:07:12 -0500 (EST) From: Zozie(at)aol.com Subject: Re: Today in History - Nov. 6 1847 Elizabeth Blackwell arrives at Geneva College to begin her medical studies. The *Baltimore Sun* comments that she "should confine her practice to the diseases of the heart.* smiling, phoebe
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Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 12:59:35 -0500 From: "Kevin J. Clement" <clementk(at)alink.com> Subject: Re: Libraries >Early this spring, I attended a conference, "Time and Bits: Managing >the Digital Continuity" which featured such speakers as Stewart >Brand, Brian Eno, Danny Hillis, Jaron Lanier and Kevin Kelly, >concerning the use of digital technologies, and among the topics >was the dismaying discussion that the digital medium, as it exists >today, disintegrates over a period of time. For example, your music >CDs have a life span of about 10-12 years. A great deal of digitally >recorded material, including the early electronic libraries must be >migrated to maintain stability in order to preserve the material until >new technologies are in place. Until that time, most old fashioned >books still outlive the electronic form. > >Patricia Looking over at my collection of CDs. Oops. Better learn how to do MP3's real fast. Forgotten about that (probably shoved way back in my memory on purpose). I remember back when CD's first came out they were sold as lasting 40+ years. And being digital *any* degradation probably renders the whole CD bad. (not as much of a problem for music as for data) Also 10 (or less) years from now there'll probably be a totally different storage medium uncompatable with current cd's, probably much different operating systems and hardware as well. Hopefully the current trend in writing emulators will continue to allow older formats to be read in the future. That's the nice thing about books. You don't have to worry about Book ver. 2.03 not being able to read texts in Book ver 1.5 format. (or MS-Books not reading VMS-Books) That was probably the most interesting thing about that (Gutenburg?) early printed bible, how new it still looked. No fading of the ink, darker than most text today, and almost no fading or discoloration anyway on the pages. (some probably due to food/drink spills, etc.) Kevin Clement clementk(at)alink.com "my remorse is over now and forever for desire and dream has gone and I am complete" Lord Sepulchrave - Gormenghast
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Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 13:11:29 -0500 (EST) From: Zozie(at)aol.com Subject: Re: Re: Libraries In a message dated 11/6/98 5:59:12 PM, Deborah wrote: << They built a large, spacious one, to replace it with big >open areas of useless space where mostly children run and scream (?) >instead of book cases.>> Ahh too bad. Our new library has a children's room downstairs. A busy place but pretty quiet, with lots and lots of activities for the kids, regular story-hours for the non-reading little ones and reading contests with cool prizes... Bragging here. All we folks in Ayer are proud of this place. And it is beautiful, too. happily, phoebe
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Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 12:25:17 -0700 From: Deborah McMillion Nering <deborah(at)gloaming.com> Subject: Re: Libraries >>... For example, your music CDs have a life span of about 10-12 years. > Is this statement true??!! While I know this to be true regarding magnetic media, your cassettes have a lifespan of 10-12 years. Longer if you take care of them, still, it degrades. I have cassettes that are already unuseable from the early 90's. However, the technomages assured me (after hysterical laughter) that this is NOT true with CD's. They are pits in plastic not magnetic resonances, like old time records. For example...I have quite a few CD's from the first ones that came out in the early 80's that are already over 15 years old and they don't show the least sign of degrading while, I mentioned before, cassettes and, yes, videotapes, already show bits missing. I think the person was misinformed. While I don't think we should ever rely on one format--books, electronic, cassette--for storage of our wealth of information. Deborah Deborah McMillion deborah(at)gloaming.com http://www.gloaming.com/deborah.html
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Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 12:29:50 -0700 From: Deborah McMillion Nering <deborah(at)gloaming.com> Subject: Black Sunday Don't know how many people got to see from AMC's Hallowe'en fest the Barbara Steele movie "Black Sunday" worth it for the opening scenes, the black coach moving silently in slow motion and the surprise under Asa's cloak at the end. End credits said it was based on a story by Gogol. Anyone know which one? Same title, another one? Our period at all? This was one very atmospheric film albeit a bit overdone in a couple places but always worth it for Barbara. Someone asked for other movies she was in and Tim Burton mentioned "Pit and the Pendulum" with Vincent Price as well as Fellini's "8 1/2". Deborah Deborah McMillion deborah(at)gloaming.com http://www.gloaming.com/deborah.html
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Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 14:38:44 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Champ <rchamp(at)polaris.umuc.edu> Subject: Re: Libraries And while we're on this topic, how long will the average diskette last before it becomes unusable? I have a good many Gaslight stories on diskette. Should I be making hard copies now? Bob C. _________________________________________________ @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ Robert L. Champ rchamp(at)polaris.umuc.edu Editor, teacher, anglophile, human curiosity Those who are alive receive a mandate from those who are silent forever. They can fulfill their duties only by trying to reconstruct precisely things as they were and by wresting the past from fictions and legends. --Czeslaw Milosz _________________________________________________ @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
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Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 11:50:17 -0800 From: Christopher & Barbara Roden <ashtree(at)wkpowerlink.com> Subject: John Buchan and the Merry Masons Two completely lost stories, one by John Buchan, the other by W. Somerset Maugham, will form part of the contents of THE ASH-TREE PRESS ANNUAL MACABRE 1998, to be published on 13 November. In this year's ANNUAL MACABRE the focus is on half a dozen authors whose names are not inevitably associated with the tale of the supernatural. Yet all six - W. Somerset Maugham, Arthur Ransome, Ford Madox Ford, E.C. Bentley, Hilaire Belloc, and John Buchan - are undisputed masters of the narrative form, and here - in 'Told in the Inn at Algeciras', 'Post-Mortem', 'The Medium's End', 'Exactly As It Happened', 'The Unpleasant Room', and 'Ho! The Merry Masons' respectively - bring a new vitality to an old medium, and prove that literary renown is no obstacle to telling a gripping and chilling story. These six tales, assembled and introduced by Jack Adrian, have remained out of print since their initial publication as many as ninety years ago?both the Maugham andn the Buchan qualify as lost stories, since neither appears in their respective author's bibliographies. THE ASH-TREE PRESS ANNUAL MACABRE will be available from 13 November onwards, priced US$31.00/Cdn$40.00 (+ postage). We shall be pleased to answer any queries you may have. Christopher Roden Ash-Tree Press ashtree(at)ash-tree.bc.ca
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Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 13:10:42 -0700 From: Deborah McMillion Nering <deborah(at)gloaming.com> Subject: Re: Libraries >And while we're on this topic, how long will the average diskette last >before it becomes unusable? I have a good many Gaslight stories on >diskette. Should I be making hard copies now? Yes, technomages say 10-12 years, it's magnetic, but it's digital so it might last a little longer but you shouldn't take a chance. Deborah Deborah McMillion deborah(at)gloaming.com http://www.gloaming.com/deborah.html
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Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 13:26:06 -0600 From: R John Hayes <liardrg(at)telusplanet.net> Subject: Re: Libraries Kevin J. Clement wrote: > On checking out what books are available, do your local libraries have any > form of computer access? I can telnet to a computer database and search > four local libraries. Could even put a hold or request on a book if I could > remember my PIN number... > Yes. Our local libraries have quite a complex system of computerized interconnectiveness, both one to the rest and from outside, as through the internet or, even, in case you don't have a computer, over the phone. And, even better, a membership in one entitles card holders to access (in some cases, limited access) to most of the rest, including the huge resources of the University of Alberta, which has a library hundreds of times larger than any of the local public libraries. And, being an academic library, it has older books and does not have the populist bent of the public libraries. Sadly, the public libraries do seem to discard most of the books that fall between reference works and current books. I tried to find a copy of The Great Gatsby last year, and the whole system in Edmonton had only a couple, and neither was easily accessible from the main library. Space considerations seem to be at the root of the whole thing, but librarians work at serving the public. The problem is that the public (here) generally doesn't see the need to fund libraries. Actually, nor do universities, for that matter. While they have built a few new edifices at the U of A in the last few years (and the student population has held steady, so the need can be questioned), they have cut subscriptions to hundreds of periodicals and steadily cut back on book and other-form acquisitions, and on hours of service. That said, I still think that we are, in this area (northern Alberta), pretty well-served, pretty fortunate. Best, John - -- R John Hayes Devon, Alberta, Canada liardrg(at)telusplanet.net
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Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 15:46:38 -0500 From: "J.M. Jamieson" <jjamieson(at)odyssey.on.ca> Subject: Re: Black Sunday At 12:29 PM 11/6/98 -0700, Deborah McMillion wrote: >Don't know how many people got to see from AMC's Hallowe'en fest the >Barbara Steele movie "Black Sunday" worth it for the opening scenes, the >black coach moving silently in slow motion and the surprise under Asa's >cloak at the end. End credits said it was based on a story by Gogol. >Anyone know which one? Same title, another one? Our period at all? This >was one very atmospheric film albeit a bit overdone in a couple places but >always worth it for Barbara. Yes the wonderful Barbara. I first saw that one when I was in my second year at the University of Western Ontario in 1963 in an old "midnite" theatre at which Walt Disney once worked. The best source on her remains to my mind "Barbara Steele: An Angel for Satan" Alan Upchurch (English Edition) ISSN 0985-133X. The later Surrealists were very fond of her. Ado Kyrou writes "The eyes of Barbara Steele transcend all appearances of reality: they reveal the eternal vistas of love" (cited in Roger Cardinal and Robert Short's _Surrealism: Permanent Revelation_). The Gogol story closest to it (Bava took a lot of liberties) seems to me to be the one called "A Terrible Vengeance". I'm willing to be corrected on that one though; it's been a while since I put those two (Bava and Gogol) together. I'm just taking a fast look at Kent's _The Collected Tales and Plays of Gogol_ which is a revision of the Garnett translations. > >Someone asked for other movies she was in and Tim Burton mentioned "Pit and >the Pendulum" with Vincent Price as well as Fellini's "8 1/2". She is all in white during the Bayreuth scene with an umbrella if I recall. The Corman movie is a tad disappointing; Price, whom I like, is more ham and cheese than usual in that one. Her last big thing was the remake of the TV series "Dark Shadows" - she also produced that one. My favorite picture of hers is "Caged Heat" where she is a wheel-chair bound sadistic warden. It's an early Demme work (1974) and not the usual fare in the "women behind bars" genre: rather a cult film actually. She is also quite good as a lesbian tenant in David Cronenberg's early flick "They Came From Within" aka "Shivers" aka "The Parasite Murders". A complete list of her work is available at the IMDB (internet movie database) at http://us.imdb.com/ Mac http://www.odyssey.on.ca/~jjamieson/ ICQ#17834084
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Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 13:29:07 -0800 (PST) From: John Schilke <schilkej(at)ohsu.EDU> Subject: Re: Libraries Yes, Kevin, I agree that books, however replaced for their factual content, will continue to be appeciated and read. Having new technology does not mean loss of old, although scrolls are rather rare these days. 8-)> I still, as a music lover, have my concern about my large CD collection, but am relieved to see that 10 years may be a rather short estimate. John On Fri, 6 Nov 1998, Kevin J. Clement wrote: > >Early this spring, I attended a conference, "Time and Bits: Managing > >the Digital Continuity" which featured such speakers as Stewart > >Brand, Brian Eno, Danny Hillis, Jaron Lanier and Kevin Kelly, > >concerning the use of digital technologies, and among the topics > >was the dismaying discussion that the digital medium, as it exists > >today, disintegrates over a period of time. For example, your music > >CDs have a life span of about 10-12 years. A great deal of digitally > >recorded material, including the early electronic libraries must be > >migrated to maintain stability in order to preserve the material until > >new technologies are in place. Until that time, most old fashioned > >books still outlive the electronic form. > > > >Patricia > > Looking over at my collection of CDs. Oops. Better learn how to do MP3's > real fast. Forgotten about that (probably shoved way back in my memory on > purpose). I remember back when CD's first came out they were sold as > lasting 40+ years. And being digital *any* degradation probably renders the > whole CD bad. (not as much of a problem for music as for data) Also 10 (or > less) years from now there'll probably be a totally different storage > medium uncompatable with current cd's, probably much different operating > systems and hardware as well. Hopefully the current trend in writing > emulators will continue to allow older formats to be read in the future. > > That's the nice thing about books. You don't have to worry about Book ver. > 2.03 not being able to read texts in Book ver 1.5 format. (or MS-Books not > reading VMS-Books) > > That was probably the most interesting thing about that (Gutenburg?) early > printed bible, how new it still looked. No fading of the ink, darker than > most text today, and almost no fading or discoloration anyway on the pages. > (some probably due to food/drink spills, etc.) > > Kevin Clement > clementk(at)alink.com > > "my remorse is over now and forever for desire and dream has gone and I am > complete" > Lord Sepulchrave - Gormenghast >
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Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 13:33:47 -0800 From: Patricia Teter <PTeter(at)getty.edu> Subject: Re: Libraries & the Digital Deborah writes: <<However, the technomages assured me (after hysterical laughter) that this is NOT true with CD's. They are pits in plastic not magnetic resonances, like old time records. For example... I have quite a few CD's from the first ones that came out in the early 80's that are already over 15 years old and they don't show the least sign of degrading while,....>>> I had assumed this as well, and I also have a number of older CDs which are still in fine condition, so it was a shock to hear this from a panel of experts in the digital field. Another figure I have heard is closer to 50 years, but I expect that is optimistic. Don't worry, newer and better technologies will far out distance our CDs before the current CDs themselves expire. A better physical medium is already known. The major difficulty is the transfer of information from one medium to another, as the early medium degrades, to prolong the lifespan of preserved digital material. Patricia
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Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 14:55:25 -0600 From: smdawes(at)home.com Subject: Re: Libraries That is a question you might as well ask the moon. Any diskette can last a few minutes or 20 years. I've had a lot of both. It just depends on chance. Don't automatically assume that the disk is bad if it won't read. If you're using Windows 95 or 98, use Scandisk on it. This will most times resurrect the data. Marta Robert Champ wrote: > > And while we're on this topic, how long will the average diskette last > before it becomes unusable? I have a good many Gaslight stories on > diskette. Should I be making hard copies now? > > Bob C. > > _________________________________________________ > (at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at) > > Robert L. Champ > rchamp(at)polaris.umuc.edu > Editor, teacher, anglophile, human curiosity > > Those who are alive receive a mandate from those > who are silent forever. They can fulfill their > duties only by trying to reconstruct precisely > things as they were and by wresting the past > from fictions and legends. > --Czeslaw Milosz > _________________________________________________ > (at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)(at)
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Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 16:45:22 -0800 From: Patricia Teter <PTeter(at)getty.edu> Subject: Re: Etext avail: Charles E. Van Loan's "Tales of the Midnight Club" RE: http://www.mtroyal.ab.ca/gaslight/buckmenu.htm Great Van Loan page, Stephen! Is this page new? Thanks, also to Bob Birchard for preparing the Van Loan stories. Patricia
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Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 19:09:46 -0800 From: Robert Birchard <bbirchard(at)earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Libraries Deborah McMillion Nering wrote in part: > > the technomages assured me (after hysterical laughter) that this > is NOT true with CD's. They are pits in plastic not magnetic resonances, > like old time records. For example...I have quite a few CD's from the > first ones that came out in the early 80's that are already over 15 years > old and they don't show the least sign of degrading while, I mentioned > before, cassettes and, yes, videotapes, already show bits missing. I think > the person was misinformed. While I don't think we should ever rely on one > format--books, electronic, cassette--for storage of our wealth of > information. The technologues are wrong in this case. While the digital information may beinfinitely clonable--if such a word exists--digital storage is still dependent on the same storage media that we already know have finite lives. Digital Audio Tape (DAT) and Digital Linear Tape (DLT) and floppy disks, Zip Drives, Jaz Drives and Syquest tapes and drives are all some sort of magnetic medium, i.e. oxide glued to a plastic carrier. Remember the glitter art you did in elementary school? The same principal applies here. As the glue dries out the glitter (or oxide) falls off. The plastic shrinks and decomposes and the end result is the storage life may be anywhere from non-existent to twenty years or more. But the average is probably 10 to 12 years. CD's aren't a lot better, they are made up of two layers of plastic boud together by a glue. Most of my CD's are just fine--even ones I bought the year the machines were first introduced--but I have seen CD's and video disks that have gone south in less than a couple of years. There is a certain amount of redundant sampling, and the information is spread out and not recorded in a strictly linear fashion so there are some safe guards to keeping the material playable, but they are hardly indestructable. If you need any proof that the claim to indestructability is bogus, remember how we were told that scratches would no longer be a problem with CD's, and have you ever tried to play a scratched CD? Nuf sed. - -- Bob Birchard bbirchard(at)earthlink.net http://www.mdle.com/ClassicFilms/Guest/birchard.htm
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Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 19:10:38 -0800 From: Robert Birchard <bbirchard(at)earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Libraries Robert Champ wrote: > > And while we're on this topic, how long will the average diskette last > before it becomes unusable? I have a good many Gaslight stories on > diskette. Should I be making hard copies now? > > Bob C. > Yes! - -- Bob Birchard bbirchard(at)earthlink.net http://www.mdle.com/ClassicFilms/Guest/birchard.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 23:13:05 -0600 From: Marsha Valance <tributefarm(at)MIXCOM.COM> Subject: Re: Libraries As a public librarian, Deb, I'll try to explain why and how weeding is done. First of all, library space is finite. If you are in an older library, filled to the max, and you need to add, say 4000 new books per year, hat means 4000 have to go. Wear, use, and contents are all criteria on which a book is judged. Most librarians have weeding plans that set forth criteria for evaluation. Say Librarian A goes to a section of shelves, and pulls onto a cart all those books which haven't circulated for 5 years. Librarian B then checks reviews and bibliographies to see if the book is recommended, or has won awards, or is part of a series, and should be kept. Librarian C sees if the book is worn, or musty, or missing pages, and should be removed--or replaced. A good library examines every book in the collection every 3-5 years, as the weeding process is ongoing. Some larger city libraries will designate the downtown library as a central--last copy repository--and the last copy of any book in the system is sent there. What books are weeded depends on the library's weeding plan, and its mission statement--some libraries aim at popular reading, some at an educational mission. But circulation IS imporant--especially when you're trying to justify funding. There will always be someone who regrets the books weeded--the librarians just try to choose the ones that will be missed least. Hope this helps. Marsha in Milwaukee - ---------- > From: Deborah McMillion Nering <deborah(at)gloaming.com> > To: gaslight(at)MtRoyal.AB.CA > Subject: Re: Libraries > Date: Friday, November 06, 1998 9:41 AM > > >One of my gripes about this > >> library is its second floor has a nice big empty section in the middle so > >> people can look down on the first floor. Books are only around the walls, > >> extending only 25' or so from the wall. They could've put plently of more > >> books there. > > As a contrast, our big Central library just tripled it's size in a nice > huge building. It has it's spacious aspects but nothing so open that isn't > being used for books or reading tables. Many books that used to be in the > basement "warehouse" that took days to get out are now out on the shelves. > We have so many branches of the Phoenix library now, too, that in order to > fill out the shelves there are fewer and fewer books in the basement. This > is great even though it often means calling three branches to get the books > you want. I'd rather do that though than discover a 12 volume set of Byron > was expunged from the shelf because people weren't checking it out. It > seems a given that that might just be a reference work and wouldn't be the > type of thing to just get checked out. I often spend time in the library > going over books and not checking them out. Maybe I should just to ensure > that they are getting out and about enough. There's a job for all of > us--check out obscure books as often as we can to keep their circulation up! > > Any input from the numerous librarians on our list as to why libraries get > rid of so many books?--is circulation everything? I think spaciousness is > nice in a building but why in a library?--my favorite library was the > former one in Tempe. It had been in an old home and book cases were built > in everywhich way. It was a cramped book maze that was a house of wonders > to me as a kid. They built a large, spacious one, to replace it with big > open areas of useless space where mostly children run and scream (?) > instead of book cases. > > Deborah > > Deborah McMillion > deborah(at)gloaming.com > http://www.gloaming.com/deborah.html
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Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 07:44:42 -0500 (EST) From: Zozie(at)aol.com Subject: Re: Re: Libraries In a message dated 11/7/98 5:29:47 AM, Marsha wrote: <<What books are weeded depends on the library's weeding plan, and its mission statement--some libraries aim at popular reading, some at an educational mission. But circulation IS imporant--especially when you're trying to justify funding. There will always be someone who regrets the books weeded--the librarians just try to choose the ones that will be missed least.>> This is the message I got from our librarian when I asked about the weeding process. I was assured there were books that were considered "important" for any library to have. There is a logic in it. In my local library we are very short on dramatic literature and very long on crafts and how-to books; lean in the philosophy section and fat in the self-help. Presumably that fits our demography here. I've found it interesting that with our new space, there are some expansions in the historical fiction (but not sci fi, alas) and New Age. Think that reflects the fact that our town has, in the last 3-4 years, become a bedroom city for Boston commuters. We're 35 miles from the city, but the roll westward for larger space for less money, improvements in the roads and the rapid transit, and the "nice-ness" of small town living begins to grow our town. Our library does a good job. I think I've cherished some naive notion that a library is a place where ALL the books ought to be. Just can't happen I now realize. Now, if the cranky lady who handles the ILLs would just smile on me once in a while... best phoebe
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Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 11:37:58 -0500 (EST) From: Zozie(at)aol.com Subject: instant books Greetings Gaslighters... something more for us to ponder as we save our books... phoebe E-BOOKS TO COME SINGING DOWN THE WIRE Saying that "if you can get to the Web, you can buy a book -- instantly," the chief executive of NuvoMedia unveiled his company's paperback-size, 22-ounce $499 electronic Rocket eBook at Barnes & Noble, the bookstore and publishing company that will make titles available for downloading onto a personal computer. Books will sell for $18 to $25, and downloading of a book will take 2 to 5 minutes. Tapping a button will allow the reader to scroll through the book, which will include a built-in dictionary and allow electronic underlining, note-taking, word search, and font changes. Generally similar products are being developed by other manufacturers, including SoftBook Press and Everybook Inc. (AP 23 Oct 98)
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Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 10:53:21 -0700 (MST) From: "p.h.wood" <woodph(at)freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> Subject: Re: Libraries As an ex-librarian (schools) married to an ex-librarian (public), I have followed the recent discussion on libraries and books with great interest. However, I have not so far seen any mention of what we both agree is the fundamental and unasked question in the library and book publication industries: "What business are they in?" I would say there are two answers to this question: "Entertainment" and "information distribution". Unfortunately, because the distribution module is the same in both instances - the printed/illustrated book - there has been and still is a basic confounding of ends, whose effects permeate the whole book industry and its offshoots, including libraries. The "university" (in which I include all academic institutions) library has managed to resolve this confounding; it is in the information distribution business. The public library has not managed to do so. In particular, because of the "free library" movement a century ago, I would say it has irrevocably fixed the image of a public library as a social service, paid for by taxpayers out of general municipal or provincial/state revenues. I am not competent to propose a remedy to this situation, in which library non-users object, sometimes successfully, to paying for a service they neither use nor require. I know that public libraries are compelled to devote much time and effort to fund-raising so that patrons may have access to an ever-increasing range of media (paperbacks, CD's, videotapes, cassette tapes, computer terminals, Internet access) that they choose not to purchase for themselves, and whose use they will not or cannot forego. I suspect that in the future there will be a return to the public "free" library's roots, one of which, the circulating subscription library, was for much of the nineteenth century the only type of library available. As in so many other situations today, I fear that some "unthinkable" solutions will have to be seriously considered, and impossible actions taken. In the meantime, I would be interested to read Gaslight group members reactions to my comments above. Peter Wood
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Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 12:22:49 -0800 (PST) From: John Schilke <schilkej(at)ohsu.EDU> Subject: Re: Libraries On Sat, 7 Nov 1998, p.h.wood wrote: > As an ex-librarian (schools) married to an ex-librarian (public), I have > followed the recent discussion on libraries and books with great interest. > However, I have not so far seen any mention of what we both agree is the > fundamental and unasked question in the library and book publication > industries: "What business are they in?" > I would say there are two answers to this question: "Entertainment" and > "information distribution". Unfortunately, because the distribution module > is the same in both instances - the printed/illustrated book - there has > been and still is a basic confounding of ends, whose effects permeate the > whole book industry and its offshoots, including libraries. > The "university" (in which I include all academic institutions) library > has managed to resolve this confounding; it is in the information > distribution business. The public library has not managed to do so. In > particular, because of the "free library" movement a century ago, I would > say it has irrevocably fixed the image of a public library as a social > service, paid for by taxpayers out of general municipal or > provincial/state revenues. > I am not competent to propose a remedy to this situation, in which library > non-users object, sometimes successfully, to paying for a service they > neither use nor require. I know that public libraries are compelled to > devote much time and effort to fund-raising so that patrons may have > access to an ever-increasing range of media (paperbacks, CD's, videotapes, > cassette tapes, computer terminals, Internet access) that they choose not > to purchase for themselves, and whose use they will not or cannot forego. > I suspect that in the future there will be a return to the public "free" > library's roots, one of which, the circulating subscription library, was > for much of the nineteenth century the only type of library available. > As in so many other situations today, I fear that some "unthinkable" > solutions will have to be seriously considered, and impossible actions > taken. In the meantime, I would be interested to read Gaslight group > members reactions to my comments above. > Peter Wood > > Hello, all! Peter's comments interest me a good deal, as a frequent user of both academic and public libraries. I remain astounded that the electronic forms of data preservation have such short lives, apparently; one cannot always trust technologic novelty. Fortunately, the book remains both pleasingly handy and relatively long-lived. There is at least one plan (Project Gutenberg) designed to put the "important" (and not-so-important) literature of the world onto digital format to make it available via the Internet. Of course, that will require tremendous effort both for copying and for maintaining the enormous files intended. Still, (much to my wife's dismay) I continue to collect books for my own library, and find our situation (here in Oregon) really quite excellent, even for my esoteric interests. Interlibrary loan, though time-consuming, enables me to obtain materials very easily. In addition, this county of more than a quarter million people has a public library for the county at large (the unincorporated areas) and in each city. The catalogues are all connected by computer, and access to material anywhere in the system is by courier and free (i.e., paid by taxes and levies). Further, several libraries maintain special collections, eliminating much duplication. For example, one has quite a collection of mysteries, another one of local history, another of art and music, and so on. I cannot complain. Even though the electronic data services, such as the Web, are really ensconced in our (public) schools, there is much that is still available and useful in book form. I don't see this changing all that much in the near future. I do agree, however, that the costs of maintaining library materials has to be paid somehow, and I'd not be surprised to see in my lifetime some form of fee-for-service use of both academic and public library facilities, even though in this area levies and taxes for same are consistently supported. I agree with Peter that much of interest will yet come. John
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Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 16:47:22 -0600 From: Mattingly Conner <muse(at)iland.net> Subject: RE: Libraries With the changes in book marketing, too, we see changes in the future of book publishing. One doesn't submit a novel to a publisher unagented much anymore. The "1st & 2nd readers" are no longer there to scan for potential, the funding not there to support and develop a promising writer's talent. Agents feel they can only take on works that are aimed at a clear-cut market, all of it aimed eventually at a specific shelf space at 'Waldens'. So: one big Titanic. A literary McDonalds: your choice of a very limited menu. But they are block buster choices! Everyone loves vanilla with hot fudge, right? But all this could change. On-line book stores allow you to look for anything you want. You can define the market with a push of a button. Books can be found there that would never surface in the mass-market mall-chains, creating their own market, meeting a broad need at less cost. And they are branching into out of print books, and enough demand for one of those titles makes for reprints. That can only be good. In a democracy, information is everything. I never mind my tax money going for libraries (she says as another Stealth bomber flies over her house. You should see these things! Actually, you're not supposed to...). What a thrill it was to put in for an inner-library loan and two weeks later have the 1880's version of the Rossetti letters in my hands (black leather, falling a part with age), a note for an over due fine from 1921 falling out the back. Hope they paid it! Deborah Mattingly Conner muse(at)iland.net http://www.iland.net/~muse "That which is creative must create itself" ~John Keats
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Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 08:37:42 -0700 From: Deborah McMillion Nering <deborah(at)gloaming.com> Subject: chat: instant books >$499 electronic Rocket eBook at Barnes & Noble, Books will sell for $18 >to >$25, and downloading of a book will take 2 to 5 minutes. I find the price of "books", not the reader, at $18-$25 incomprehensible. Why so much? I understand why the reader is expensive, all new technologies are, but why so much for the downloaded book? I can buy the real thing and keep it or resell it for less. I understand the readers hold several books and I presume that you "refill" it as you have read the "books". So I ask again--why would I want to pay $18 for an electronic version of a book I will eventually record over? The idea of electronic books is appealing if you only want to read it (but then I'd go to the library) and the price is something like $2 to do so. Might appeal to business types for extended plane trips, etc. because several books could be fitted into the space of one paperback but at $18-$25 each? Deborah PS: thanks for the explanations of the culling process of books. At least those culled are offered for sale to those of us who covet them. And thanks for extra info on Barbara Steele/Gogol story. Deborah McMillion deborah(at)gloaming.com http://www.gloaming.com/deborah.html
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Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 10:00:25 -0800 From: Robert Birchard <bbirchard(at)earthlink.net> Subject: Re: chat: instant books I just saw a much more promising technolgy than $25 e-books on TV this morning, and that is printing on demand. Barnes & Noble, Ingraham and Lightning Print, Inc. have been testing a system that would allow books to be printed as ordered--one off at a time if required--and still maintain standard level book pricing. The format of these books is like a trade paperback--not unlike what we've seen recently with some of the fancier pre-publication proof copies for reviewers. Such technology may make what are now somewhat marginal book more economically competitive. If one could save half the cost of printing and all the cost of warehousing, one might be able to plow that money back into advertising--and even ,odest ads properly placed might have some impact in the market place. Very interesting technological development. - -- Bob Birchard bbirchard(at)earthlink.net http://www.mdle.com/ClassicFilms/Guest/birchard.htm
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Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 11:41:27 -0700 (MST) From: "p.h.wood" <woodph(at)freenet.edmonton.ab.ca> Subject: Re: chat: instant books Bob Birchard's posting on this subject is a development I was thinking about some time ago, and I'm delighted to see it's being considered seriously. However, one problem which occurred to me is the question of selection; without the book to hand, how is the potential buyer to decide whether this, of all the other listed titles on RMS Titanic (say) is *the* one? Reviewers are not, in general reliable; the Book Section of one's daily newspaper features "reviews" which are frequently written by a reporter who was a sports columnist last month, and may be the foreign affairs writer next month. In consequence, most of them are not worth reading as reviews; a clearer picture can be got from the publisher's blurb. Lists of best-sellers are meaningless in content, and useless for selection. If the "instant book" becomes widely-adopted, the bookstore as we know it becomes redundant. It becomes a catalogue-shopping outlet, where choices are made prior to ordering, and only samples are on display. Of course, such an outlet could have specialised "boutiques" where traditional book-marketing would be carried on, and books chosen off-shelf from a display of related titles. BUT, these would have to be self-supporting, and I see this as meaning an increase - probably a considerable increase - in their book prices. No more would multiple copies of Anne Perry's latest block-buster subsidise occasional single-volume sales of John Lanchester's "The Debt to Pleasure" (to select two adjacent titles from a nearby bookshelf). Further comments on this subject are awaited with interest. Peter Wood ------------------------------ End of Gaslight Digest V1 #18 *****************************