Gaslight Digest Friday, November 6 1998 Volume 01 : Number 017


In this issue:


   Re:  Re: quote question
   Re: quote question
   More on Will Rogers
   Today in History - Nov. 4
   ghost in the machine
   Re: quote question
   Re: quote question
   Re: Arno Press
   Re: Arno Press
   Re: Libraries
   Re: Libraries
   Today in History - Nov. 5
   RE: Libraries
   Re: Libraries
   Re: quote question
   Ghost in the Machine (was quote question)
   Etext avail: P.G. McColl's "The Sting of Conscience"
   Re: Libraries
   Etext avail: Van Loan's boxing story; and Australian tramps
   Re: Libraries
   Re: Libraries
   Re:  Re: Libraries
   Re: Libraries
   Re: Libraries
   Re: Libraries
   Today in History - Nov. 6
   Re: Libraries

-----------------------------THE POSTS-----------------------------

Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 10:40:47 -0500 (EST)
From: Zozie(at)aol.com
Subject: Re:  Re: quote question

Not sting... maybe Descartes?

phoebe

===0===



Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 10:39:00 -0500
From: "S.T. Karnick" <skarnick(at)INDY.NET>
Subject: Re: quote question

It goes back at least to Arthur Koestler.

Best w's,

S.T. Karnick

- -----Original Message-----
From: Deborah McMillion Nering <deborah(at)gloaming.com>
To: gaslight(at)MtRoyal.AB.CA <gaslight(at)MtRoyal.AB.CA>
Date: Wednesday, November 04, 1998 10:34 AM
Subject: Re: quote question


>>I believe it's a song title by Sting.  Though maybe he got it from
>>somewhere else before that.
>
>It's also an episode title for Xfiles, but yes, I definitely believe it is
>from someplace else but I can't find anything.  Nothing in Bartletts
either.
>
>Deborah
>
>
>
>Deborah McMillion
>deborah(at)gloaming.com
>http://www.gloaming.com/deborah.html
>

===0===



Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 10:19:55 -0700
From: Jerry Carlson <gmc(at)libra.pvh.org>
Subject: More on Will Rogers

From the Cowles Enthusiast Media website:

   William Penn Adair Rogers, born on November 4, 1879, on a ranch in 
Indian                                                    Territory (now 
Oklahoma), was widely  loved during the 1920s and 1930s for his gentle humor 
and homespun philosophies. Part Cherokee Indian, Rogers once told a Boston 
audience, "My ancestors didn't come over on the Mayflower, but they met the 
boat." Rogers got his show business start in 1902 doing rope tricks in a Wild 
West show. He moved on to vaudeville and, by 1916, he was the wisecracking star 
of Florenz Ziegfeld's "Follies." As a newspaper columnist and book author, 
Rogers poked fun at important people and events, and he was equally successful 
as a motion picture actor. Rogers' film credits include _A Connecticut Yankee_ 
in 1931 and _State Fair_ in 1933. The nation mourned when Will Rogers, along 
with pilot Wiley Post, were killed in an Alaska plane crash on August 15, 1935.

===0===



Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 10:15:53 -0700
From: Jerry Carlson <gmc(at)libra.pvh.org>
Subject: Today in History - Nov. 4

            1842
                Abraham Lincoln marries Mary Todd in Springfield, Ill.
            1854
                Florence Nightingale and her nurses arrive in the Crimea.
            1863
                From the main Confederate Army at Chattanooga, Tenn., Lt. Gen. 
James Longstreet's
                troops are sent northeast to besiege Knoxville (Jerry Note: Of 
course, it was Stonewall Jackson that
                the tour guide at the Confedarte Museum in Knoxville was 
enamored with.)
            1918
                Austria signs armistice with Allies.

         Born on November 4
            1879
                Will Rogers, American actor and writer who said "I never met a 
man I didn't like"
                (Jerry Note: _Mad's Talking Stamps_ paired a US stamp of Rogers 
and this quote with one of
                Adolph Hitler; an added balloon had Rogers saying, "On second 
thought ...")
            1916
                Walter Cronkite, news anchor.

===0===



Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 18:29:13 -0500 (EST)
From: Zozie(at)aol.com
Subject: ghost in the machine

Someone on another list offers this...

<<Only vain people cite themselves <g> so I won't say that I attributed the
quote "The dogma of the Ghost in the machine" in my MSc dissertation to :

Ryle, Gilbert 1949. _The Concept of Mind_.

I notice that Janice E Dawley mentioned Rene Descartes but I haven't been able
to confirm that. Everyone knows of his criticisms of the "mechanistic" or
"machine" model of humans ("...a machine made by the Hands of God, which is
incomparably better arranged, and adequate to movements more admirable than is
any machine of human invention" and lots more) in _Discours..._ but "ghost"
(or the French equivalent) just seems such an odd concept for Descartes to use
especially when one would have expected him to use "soul". Perhaps Janice can
give us a tighter citation?>>

smiling,
phoebe

===0===



Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 17:53:36 -0600
From: smdawes(at)home.com
Subject: Re: quote question

Yes, it's a quote from Descartes.

Marta

S.T. Karnick wrote:
>
> It goes back at least to Arthur Koestler.
>
> Best w's,
>
> S.T. Karnick
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Deborah McMillion Nering <deborah(at)gloaming.com>
> To: gaslight(at)MtRoyal.AB.CA <gaslight(at)MtRoyal.AB.CA>
> Date: Wednesday, November 04, 1998 10:34 AM
> Subject: Re: quote question
>
> >>I believe it's a song title by Sting.  Though maybe he got it from
> >>somewhere else before that.
> >
> >It's also an episode title for Xfiles, but yes, I definitely believe it is
> >from someplace else but I can't find anything.  Nothing in Bartletts
> either.
> >
> >Deborah
> >
> >
> >
> >Deborah McMillion
> >deborah(at)gloaming.com
> >http://www.gloaming.com/deborah.html
> >

===0===



Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 20:26:23 -0600
From: Marsha Valance <tributefarm(at)MIXCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: quote question

I believe it's from Decartes--the ghost is the soul or spirit; the machine
is the body.

Marsha in Milwaukee

- ----------
> From: athan chilton <ayc(at)UIUC.EDU>
> To: gaslight(at)MtRoyal.AB.CA
> Subject: Re: quote question
> Date: Wednesday, November 04, 1998 8:45 AM
>
> >Aaargh... my brain will not deliver memory.  Where does the phrase "the
ghost
> >in the machine" come from?  Someone (or all of you) must know.
> >
> >hopefully,
> >phoebe
>
> I believe it's a song title by Sting.  Though maybe he got it from
> somewhere else before that.
>
> athan
> ayc(at)uiuc.edu
>
>
>

===0===



Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 01:10:21 -0500 (EST)
From: Robert Champ <rchamp(at)polaris.umuc.edu>
Subject: Re: Arno Press

On Mon, 2 Nov 1998, Robert Raven wrote:

> To John & Robert & Brenda & Toni (all of whom responded to my inquiry),
>
> A big thanks.  Sounds like I got incredibly lucky with this one.  The
> copy I have was in the library discard sale because it had been checked
> out all of 3 times, twice in 1987 and once in 1990.  Except for a couple
> of library stamps and a taped library designation on the spine it's in
> near pristine condition.  I'll be on the lookout for others of this
> publisher's list.
>
> Bob Raven
>

Although I'm glad the Arno volume has found a good home with Bob, I must
say that this practice of discarding books from a library's collection
based on the number of times it has been checked out is reprehensible.
The value of a book and the popularity of a book have no necessary
relation.  And I hate to think that old books are being sold off to make
way for new ones, which will probably have less art, less thought, and
less heart behind them than the work of our contemporaries.

A library is not just a building that holds books; it is a repository of
the past, a way into worlds that we will--without the aid of books--never
come to know.  It is the distillation of our civilization, and the
civilizations of others.  Librarians should be fighting tooth and nail to
save every book in their library's collection; and if some books must go,
there should be some criterion of selection other than the number of
times a book has been checked out.  That is truly vulgar.

Bob C.
_________________________________________________
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Robert L. Champ
rchamp(at)polaris.umuc.edu
Editor, teacher, anglophile, human curiosity

Those who are alive receive a mandate from those
who are silent forever.  They can fulfill their
duties only by trying to reconstruct precisely
things as they were and by wresting the past
from fictions and legends.
                         --Czeslaw Milosz
_________________________________________________
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

===0===



Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 07:39:20 -0700
From: Deborah McMillion Nering <deborah(at)gloaming.com>
Subject: Re: Arno Press

>A library is not just a building that holds books; it is a repository of
>the past, a way into worlds

Frankly, Bob, I've always felt this is true of video stores.  I realize
though they are a business but it makes me insane to find a really good
movie missing from the shelves because it wasn't being checked out that
much.  Fewer and fewer classics are on the shelves to rent because of this.
I tried to rent Bell Book and Candle and all four video places near me that
HAD had copies no longer did.  Fortunately we have AMC and TCM, etc. but
not at hand.  For a library to do this is shocking.  I can't believe the
number of gorgeous old volumes, pictorial covers, etc. of works I've
collected over the years that came from libraries.  I just purchased a
gorgeous one of Poe's poems.  The cover is not only pictorial the pen and
ink illustrations inside are some I have never seen before.  Certainly
Poe's work is still available in the library--but not these illustrations.

Deborah

Deborah McMillion
deborah(at)gloaming.com
http://www.gloaming.com/deborah.html

===0===



Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 10:15:49 -0500
From: "S.T. Karnick" <skarnick(at)INDY.NET>
Subject: Re: Libraries

I agree with Bob's and Deborah's comments. Just yesterday I read an
excellent piece by Jaques Barzun (from 1978) about this very subject.
Barzun's point was that the 14th-century rediscovery of Chaucer and
19th-century rediscovery of Shakespeare were only possible because books
used to last almost indefinitely. As books became cheaper and more popular,
two things happened. The use of inexpensive acid-based paper ensured that
most books would fall apart after less than a century, and that librarians
would feel constrained to discard large numbers of books that future
generations might have found well worth reading. Think of having lost
Chaucer and Shakespeare forever!

Barzun correctly dismissed the technologies as inadequate to the task of
preservation. Microfilm and microfiche could physically save the texts, but
are exceedingly awkward to use, and they destroy the scholar's greatest
tool, the ability to browse a library and find the forgotten worthy volume.
(Personal testimony: this is how I discovered Anthony Powell, Max Beerbohm,
Robert Benchley, and a number of other worthy authors whose works were not
in print at the time.) Barzun also thought the computer,as it then was,
quite inadequate to the task. One surmises that he still thinks the same,
but I believe strongly that the digital era and the ability to publish books
electronically at essentially no cost whatever is already saving much great
literature and will do much more if governments do not impede the process
unduly. (The recent copyright extension can be seen as a way of preserving
literature, by ensuring its profitability, but I have my doubts.) The
digital book that will plug into the Internet will certainly not have all
the good qualities of its wood-pulp predecessor, and it will not entirely
replace it, but it will have advantages of its own, not least of which is
the fact that it will make preservation of the one essential element of a
book -- the words -- cheap and easy, and will hence make both nonprofit and
forprofit book preservation efforts much more feasible.  We must embrace all
solutions simultaneously, and trust that the combination of these will do
what is necessary.

Best w's,

S.T. Karnick

- -----Original Message-----
From: Deborah McMillion Nering <deborah(at)gloaming.com>
To: gaslight(at)MtRoyal.AB.CA <gaslight(at)MtRoyal.AB.CA>
Date: Thursday, November 05, 1998 9:41 AM
Subject: Re: Arno Press


>
>>A library is not just a building that holds books; it is a repository of
>>the past, a way into worlds
>
>Frankly, Bob, I've always felt this is true of video stores.  I realize
>though they are a business but it makes me insane to find a really good
>movie missing from the shelves because it wasn't being checked out that
>much.  Fewer and fewer classics are on the shelves to rent because of this.
>I tried to rent Bell Book and Candle and all four video places near me that
>HAD had copies no longer did.  Fortunately we have AMC and TCM, etc. but
>not at hand.  For a library to do this is shocking.  I can't believe the
>number of gorgeous old volumes, pictorial covers, etc. of works I've
>collected over the years that came from libraries.  I just purchased a
>gorgeous one of Poe's poems.  The cover is not only pictorial the pen and
>ink illustrations inside are some I have never seen before.  Certainly
>Poe's work is still available in the library--but not these illustrations.
>
>Deborah
>
>Deborah McMillion
>deborah(at)gloaming.com
>http://www.gloaming.com/deborah.html
>

===0===



Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 10:11:27 -0600 (CST)
From: James Rogers <jetan(at)ionet.net>
Subject: Re: Libraries

At 10:15 AM 11/5/98 -0500, S.T. Karnick wrote:
(The recent copyright extension can be seen as a way of preserving
>literature, by ensuring its profitability, but I have my doubts.)

     I think that your doubts are appropriate. The extension wil enhance
profits on a very tiny percentage of the covered works.....Mickey Mouse, for
instance.....but will likely discourage the inexpensive PD-no-more reprints
offered by Dover Books and and Project Gutenberg. It seems clear that this
will make quirky books of narrow popular appeal, such as Cozzens's
_Castaway_ or Cabell's stuff, even less available than they are today.
Project Gutenberg and it's cousins were, for this very reason, among the
most passionate opponents of this legislation.

                                 James
James Michael Rogers
jetan(at)ionet.net
Mundus Vult Decipi

===0===



Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 09:06:59 -0700
From: Jerry Carlson <gmc(at)libra.pvh.org>
Subject: Today in History - Nov. 5

              1814
                Having decided to abandon the Niagara frontier, the American 
army blows up Fort Erie.
             1840
                Afghanistan surrenders to the British.
            1854 
                British and French defeat the Russians at Inkerman, Crimea.
            1862
                President Abraham Lincoln relieves General George McClellan of 
command of the Union
                armies and names Maj. Gen. Ambrose Burnside commander of the 
Army of the Potomac.
            1872
                Susan B. Anthony arrested for trying to vote.
            1911
                Calbraith P. Rodgers ends first transcontinental flight; 49 
days from New York to
                Pasadena, Calif.
            1912
                Woodrow Wilson elected 28th president.
            1912
                Arizona, Wisconsin and Kansas grant women the right to vote.
            1914
                French and British declare war on Turkey.
            1917
                General Pershing leads U.S. troops into the first American 
action against German forces.
            1922
                King Tut's tomb discovered. (A little out of period, but since 
we have so many mummy fans ...)



                                     Born on November 5
            1855
                Eugene V. Debs, American socialist leader and first president 
of the American Railway
                Union
            1913
                Vivian Leigh, American actress famous for her role as Scarlet 
O'Hare in Gone With the
                Wind

===0===



Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 10:37:21 -0600
From: Mattingly Conner <muse(at)iland.net>
Subject: RE: Libraries

An English friend of mine was comparing the monies in Europe for
support of the Arts vs. the funds earmarked in the US for Art.  I
was ashamed. I don't think it speaks for the people.
With heart,
Deborah Mattingly Conner
muse(at)iland.net
http://www.iland.net/~muse
So each entered the forest at a point that he, himself, had
chosen, where it was darkest and there was no path. ~La Queste
del Saint Graal

===0===



Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 11:51:21 -0500
From: "S.T. Karnick" <skarnick(at)INDY.NET>
Subject: Re: Libraries

Deborah Mattingly Conner wrote,


>An English friend of mine was comparing the monies in Europe for
>support of the Arts vs. the funds earmarked in the US for Art.  I
>was ashamed. I don't think it speaks for the people.


There's no need to be ashamed; the numbers that people tend to quote are
woefully incomplete. We do things differently in the U.S., with everything
more decentralized than in other nations. When you add in private support of
the arts and higher education expenditures on same, and state and local
expenditures, not to mention  the commercial realm, it's clear that the U.S.
far outstrips any other nation in overall expenditures on the arts. Note
that nobody complains that German culture is taking over the world; it's the
U.S. they're concerned about, because we have the money and we use it.

Best w's,

S.T. Karnick

===0===



Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 15:40:35 -0500 (CDT)
From: AJ Wright <MEDS002(at)UABDPO.DPO.UAB.EDU>
Subject: Re: quote question

title of a book by Arthur Koestler, also author of _Darkness at Noon_...
  aj wright

===0===



Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 17:07:09 -0500
From: "J.M. Jamieson" <jjamieson(at)odyssey.on.ca>
Subject: Ghost in the Machine (was quote question)

Hi all,

Gilbert Ryle in his book "The Concept of Mind" (1949) used this concept in
a derisive way to refer to a view of Descartes (actually Cartesian - since
old Rene if Ryle had bothered to read him never held this view) that
represents the body as a purely physical thing (the machine) and the mind
as a purely non-physical thing (dah ghost)- which of course is sort-of in
the body as a sort-of pilot. Ryle thinks (hee hee) that this is a totally
wrong notion.  Which of course it is. If he had bothered to read Descartes
he would of known that - but alas, professors and all, you know....

Koestler's work came out in 1967.  A tad late as of course were all his ideas.

Mac
http://www.odyssey.on.ca/~jjamieson/
ICQ#17834084

===0===



Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 15:37:10 -0700
From: sdavies(at)MtRoyal.AB.CA
Subject: Etext avail: P.G. McColl's "The Sting of Conscience"

(STNGCONC.HTM) (Fiction, Chronos, Scheds)
P.G. McColl's "The Sting of Conscience" (1898-99)


               stngconc.sht
     Here's next week's story for discussion, P.G. McColl's
     "The Sting of Conscience", originally serialized in three parts
starting in 1898.  The
     scene opens at the Melbourne Cup, a horse race still run today, in
fact just this week!!!

     Thanks to Toni Johnson-Wood for sending it along.

     It is now available on the website and as an ASCII etext
      thru FTPmail.

 To retrieve the plain ASCII file,
 send to:  ftpmail(at)MtRoyal.AB.CA

 with no subject heading and completely in lowercase:

 open aftp.mtroyal.ab.ca
 cd /gaslight
 get stngconc.sht

 or visit the Gaslight website at:

 http://www.mtroyal.ab.ca/gaslight/stngconc.htm

===0===



Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 01:52:33 -0500
From: "Kevin J. Clement" <clementk(at)alink.com>
Subject: Re: Libraries

 Even though my local public library is in a college town (or maybe because
of it) it often (about every other months or more) gets rid of at least
10-30 books at a time by putting them out for sale for $0.25-$.50. If they
don't sell I think they give them the local annual book sale and if they
don't sell there they go to the Salvation Army or GoodWill. While most
aren't anything great (like annual price guides, etc.) they often are books
that haven't been checked out in a long time or never, usually from the
"closed stacks" in the basement.
 While I have bought about 10 books from them I'd much rather they were
available for others to read as well. Several times I've gone to that
library to check out some book I was looking forward to reading to find it
had been sold. This library does a good job on getting new books in a wide
range of topics but I really have a hard time finding many older authors,
or more than one or two books for a author. One of the reasons I joined
Gaslight was to read and discuss authors I've heard about and *know* I
should read but can't find anything by them. One of my gripes about this
library is its second floor has a nice big empty section in the middle so
people can look down on the first floor. Books are only around the walls,
extending only 25' or so from the wall. They could've put plently of more
books there.
 As a result I've had to buy more books, which is ok (but pricey and I tend
to run out of room fast), but I would prefer to at least sample an author
first. That and many authors are not in print and are hard to find even in
used book stores. And as an admirer of Gustav Dore for example, the
original editions with his prints are much preferred over cheap paperbacks
of Dante, etc. to me. And are also nigh impossible to find outside of a
library.
 There are two other libraries within a short (15-25 minute) drive of where
I live. One is in about the same situation as my local library and the main
Newark library is better but being located right in the middle of downtown
is hard to get to and park at. They have a little better range of authors
and usually more works per author.
 In regards to electronic preservation...there are 200-300dpi computer
screens in development that would be much easier to read text on. If one
could be put in some sort of portable device they could suppliment computer
manuals, medical texts, etc. However there's still something about being
able to hold a book in one's hands and turn the pages. No crashes, reboots,
hard drive failures, etc.

exp. been upgrading my copy of Internet Explorer 5.0 tonight and I've
already had two program crashes while downloading.
Will settle down to my new copy of The Haunting of Hill House after I send
this email to fall asleep with. Had to order it through my local bookstore
and though it arrived on Halloween I didn't get the postcard notification
until Tuesday. :-(

Kevin Clement
clementk(at)alink.com

"my remorse is over now and forever for desire and dream has gone and I am
complete"
Lord Sepulchrave - Gormenghast

===0===



Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 00:50:00 -0700
From: sdavies(at)MtRoyal.AB.CA
Subject: Etext avail: Van Loan's boxing story; and Australian tramps

(BUCKMENU.HTM) (Fiction, Chronos)
Charles E. Van Loan's "Scrap Iron" (1915)

(SUNDOWNR.HTM) (Nonfict, Chronos)
Anonymous' "'Sundowner's' and other bush types" (Year?)

               scrapiron.sht
     Coincident with this week's story by Charles E. Van Loan
     is another one of his sporting,this time about boxing.
     Van Loan was formerly the sports editor of the Los Angeles
     _Examiner_.  The story is called "Scrap Iron" (1915)


               sundownr.non
     An essay published anonymously in _Temple Bar_, vol. 105
     (Sorry, I forget the year) which elaborates on the varieties
     of tramp to be found in Australia.

     These are now available on the website and as ASCII etexts
      thru FTPmail.

 To retrieve the plain ASCII files,
 send to:  ftpmail(at)MtRoyal.AB.CA

 with no subject heading and completely in lowercase:

 open aftp.mtroyal.ab.ca
 cd /gaslight
 get scrapirn.sht
 get sundownr.non

 or visit the Gaslight website at:

 http://www.mtroyal.ab.ca/gaslight/buckmenu.htm
 http://www.mtroyal.ab.ca/gaslight/sundownr.htm

===0===



Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 06:03:51 -0600
From: smdawes(at)home.com
Subject: Re: Libraries

The local library in Omaha really irks me.  I'm a big fan of Lord Byron;
I
checked out all of the collected letters edited by Leslie Marchand;
there were about 14 volumes.  In fact, I checked them all out numerous
times.
After several years, I wanted to go back and re-examine some of them.
The
library had sent the whole set out to their book sale!  I was very
upset, but
there was nothing I could do.  You would think that a historical figure
like Byron
would make them keep something like that forever, especially when the
books cost
about $25 each.  Obviously, they are only worried about the number of
times
a book is checked out, not it's actual value as a reference.

Because of this, I will have to go out and buy the set myself, and it
runs about
$125 used.  I would like to own them anyway, but what about the person
who can't
afford this?  Shouldn't they reasonably expect their local library to
have
something like this?

Marta

Kevin J. Clement wrote:
>
>         Even though my local public library is in a college town (or maybe 
because
> of it) it often (about every other months or more) gets rid of at least
> 10-30 books at a time by putting them out for sale for $0.25-$.50. If they
> don't sell I think they give them the local annual book sale and if they
> don't sell there they go to the Salvation Army or GoodWill. While most
> aren't anything great (like annual price guides, etc.) they often are books
> that haven't been checked out in a long time or never, usually from the
> "closed stacks" in the basement.
>         While I have bought about 10 books from them I'd much rather they were
> available for others to read as well. Several times I've gone to that
> library to check out some book I was looking forward to reading to find it
> had been sold. This library does a good job on getting new books in a wide
> range of topics but I really have a hard time finding many older authors,
> or more than one or two books for a author. One of the reasons I joined
> Gaslight was to read and discuss authors I've heard about and *know* I
> should read but can't find anything by them. One of my gripes about this
> library is its second floor has a nice big empty section in the middle so
> people can look down on the first floor. Books are only around the walls,
> extending only 25' or so from the wall. They could've put plently of more
> books there.
>         As a result I've had to buy more books, which is ok (but pricey and I 
tend
> to run out of room fast), but I would prefer to at least sample an author
> first. That and many authors are not in print and are hard to find even in
> used book stores. And as an admirer of Gustav Dore for example, the
> original editions with his prints are much preferred over cheap paperbacks
> of Dante, etc. to me. And are also nigh impossible to find outside of a
> library.
>         There are two other libraries within a short (15-25 minute) drive of 
where
> I live. One is in about the same situation as my local library and the main
> Newark library is better but being located right in the middle of downtown
> is hard to get to and park at. They have a little better range of authors
> and usually more works per author.
>         In regards to electronic preservation...there are 200-300dpi computer
> screens in development that would be much easier to read text on. If one
> could be put in some sort of portable device they could suppliment computer
> manuals, medical texts, etc. However there's still something about being
> able to hold a book in one's hands and turn the pages. No crashes, reboots,
> hard drive failures, etc.
>
> exp. been upgrading my copy of Internet Explorer 5.0 tonight and I've
> already had two program crashes while downloading.
> Will settle down to my new copy of The Haunting of Hill House after I send
> this email to fall asleep with. Had to order it through my local bookstore
> and though it arrived on Halloween I didn't get the postcard notification
> until Tuesday. :-(
>
> Kevin Clement
> clementk(at)alink.com
>
> "my remorse is over now and forever for desire and dream has gone and I am
> complete"
> Lord Sepulchrave - Gormenghast

===0===



Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 08:41:06 -0700
From: Deborah McMillion Nering <deborah(at)gloaming.com>
Subject: Re: Libraries

>One of my gripes about this
>> library is its second floor has a nice big empty section in the middle so
>> people can look down on the first floor. Books are only around the walls,
>> extending only 25' or so from the wall. They could've put plently of more
>> books there.

As a contrast, our big Central library just tripled it's size in a nice
huge building.  It has it's spacious aspects but nothing so open that isn't
being used for books or reading tables.  Many books that used to be in the
basement "warehouse" that took days to get out are now out on the shelves.
We have so many branches of the Phoenix library now, too, that in order to
fill out the shelves there are fewer and fewer books in the basement.  This
is great even though it often means calling three branches to get the books
you want.  I'd rather do that though than discover a 12 volume set of Byron
was expunged from the shelf because people weren't checking it out.  It
seems a given that that might just be a reference work and wouldn't be the
type of thing to just get checked out.  I often spend time in the library
going over books and not checking them out.  Maybe I should just to ensure
that they are getting out and about enough.  There's a job for all of
us--check out obscure books as often as we can to keep their circulation up!

Any input from the numerous librarians on our list as to why libraries get
rid of so many books?--is circulation everything?  I think spaciousness is
nice in a building but why in a library?--my favorite library was the
former one in Tempe.  It had been in an old home and book cases were built
in everywhich way.  It was a cramped book maze that was a house of wonders
to me as a kid.  They built a large, spacious one, to replace it with big
open areas of useless space where mostly children run and scream (?)
instead of book cases.

Deborah

Deborah McMillion
deborah(at)gloaming.com
http://www.gloaming.com/deborah.html

===0===



Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 11:06:59 -0500 (EST)
From: Zozie(at)aol.com
Subject: Re:  Re: Libraries

Our little town (7000 people, sort of) just tripled the size of our library.
It's beautiful.  And we all voted for the extra taxes that it cost.

But the library still sells off "dusty" books.  I'm usually there first thing
in the morning of a sale.  The library, presumably, stocks what people here
want to read.  But also takes suggestions from an active and vocal "Friends of
the Library" organization.

best
phoebe

===0===



Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 08:56:54 -0800
From: Patricia Teter <PTeter(at)getty.edu>
Subject: Re: Libraries

Kevin writes: <<In regards to electronic preservation...there
are 200-300dpi computer screens in development that would
be much easier to read text on. If one could be put in some
sort of portable device they could suppliment computer manuals,
medical texts, etc. However there's still something about being
able to hold a book in one's hands and turn the pages. No
crashes, reboots, hard drive failures, etc. >>>

Early this spring, I attended a conference, "Time and Bits: Managing
the Digital Continuity" which featured such speakers as Stewart
Brand, Brian Eno, Danny Hillis, Jaron Lanier and Kevin Kelly,
concerning the use of digital technologies, and among the topics
was the dismaying discussion that the digital medium, as it exists
today, disintegrates over a period of time.  For example, your music
CDs have a life span of about 10-12 years.  A great deal of digitally
recorded material, including the early electronic libraries must be
migrated to maintain stability in order to preserve the material until
new technologies are in place.  Until that time, most old fashioned
books still outlive the electronic form.

Patricia

===0===



Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 09:27:55 -0800 (PST)
From: John Schilke <schilkej(at)ohsu.EDU>
Subject: Re: Libraries

Hello!
 I usually lurk and learn a great deal.

On Fri, 6 Nov 1998, Patricia Teter wrote:
>
> Early this spring, I attended a conference, "Time and Bits: Managing
> the Digital Continuity" which featured such speakers as Stewart
> Brand, Brian Eno, Danny Hillis, Jaron Lanier and Kevin Kelly,
> concerning the use of digital technologies, and among the topics
> was the dismaying discussion that the digital medium, as it exists
> today, disintegrates over a period of time.
>...  For example, your music
> CDs have a life span of about 10-12 years.
 Is this statement true??!!  I am both amazed and frightened!!
Was any explanation available, and does the number of plays of the CD
make any difference?  I am sure that many folks would be horrified to
know that their expensive collections will disappear in a decade or so.
Perhaps I oughtn't give away my '33' records just yet!  Please expound
further or refer to an authority on this problem, which is almost as
important as "Y2K."

>  A great deal of digitally
> recorded material, including the early electronic libraries must be
> migrated to maintain stability in order to preserve the material until
> new technologies are in place.  Until that time, most old fashioned
> books still outlive the electronic form.

 Thank you very much,
 John

===0===



Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 09:32:21 -0800 (PST)
From: John Tenney <jten(at)crl.com>
Subject: Re: Libraries

This is fascinating! I do wish that more people would listen to those who
warn us that our dependence on new technology will result in shooting
ourselves in the feet, or higher parts of the anatomy. Not just issues of
information preservation, but quality of presentation. Studies are just
coming out warning that overdependence on computers in the classroom may
be highly counterproductive.

On Fri, 6 Nov 1998, Patricia Teter wrote:

> Kevin writes: <<In regards to electronic preservation...there
> are 200-300dpi computer screens in development that would
> be much easier to read text on. If one could be put in some
> sort of portable device they could suppliment computer manuals,
> medical texts, etc. However there's still something about being
> able to hold a book in one's hands and turn the pages. No
> crashes, reboots, hard drive failures, etc. >>>
>
> Early this spring, I attended a conference, "Time and Bits: Managing
> the Digital Continuity" which featured such speakers as Stewart
> Brand, Brian Eno, Danny Hillis, Jaron Lanier and Kevin Kelly,
> concerning the use of digital technologies, and among the topics
> was the dismaying discussion that the digital medium, as it exists
> today, disintegrates over a period of time.  For example, your music
> CDs have a life span of about 10-12 years.  A great deal of digitally
> recorded material, including the early electronic libraries must be
> migrated to maintain stability in order to preserve the material until
> new technologies are in place.  Until that time, most old fashioned
> books still outlive the electronic form.
>
> Patricia
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

===0===



Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 10:45:23 -0700
From: Jerry Carlson <gmc(at)libra.pvh.org>
Subject: Today in History - Nov. 6

            1860
                Abraham Lincoln elected 16th president.
            1861
                Jefferson Davis elected to a six year term as President of the 
Confederacy. An
                Englishman's view of the Confederacy.
            1863
                Civil War Battle of Droop Mountain, W.Va.
            1891
                Comanche, the only 7th Cavalry horse to survive George 
Armstrong Custer's "Last Stand"
                at the Little Bighorn, dies at Fort Riley, Kan. Was there a 
cover-up of the real events
                surrounding the legendary battle at Little Bighhorn?
            1900
                President William McKinley reelected.
            1911
                Maine becomes a dry state.
            1917
                Bolshevik "October Revolution" (October 25 on the old Russian 
calendar), led by Vladimir
                Lenin and Leon Trotsky, seizes power in Petrograd.

                                     Born on November 6
            1814
                Adolphe Sax, instrument maker and inventor of the saxophone.
            1831
                James Garfield, 20th president of the United States.
            1854
                John Philip Sousa, bandmaster and composer.

===0===



Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 12:37:48 -0500
From: "Kevin J. Clement" <clementk(at)alink.com>
Subject: Re: Libraries

>As a contrast, our big Central library just tripled it's size in a nice
>huge building.  It has it's spacious aspects but nothing so open that isn't
>being used for books or reading tables.  Many books that used to be in the
>basement "warehouse" that took days to get out are now out on the shelves.
>We have so many branches of the Phoenix library now, too, that in order to
>fill out the shelves there are fewer and fewer books in the basement.  This
>is great even though it often means calling three branches to get the books
>you want.  I'd rather do that though than discover a 12 volume set of Byron
>was expunged from the shelf because people weren't checking it out.  It
>seems a given that that might just be a reference work and wouldn't be the
>type of thing to just get checked out.  I often spend time in the library
>going over books and not checking them out.  Maybe I should just to ensure
>that they are getting out and about enough.  There's a job for all of
>us--check out obscure books as often as we can to keep their circulation up!

Agreed. And it makes the librarians open up the closed stacks more, get
some exercise. At Granville Public Library one has to "wheel", literally
spin huge sailing ship size wheels,  several bookshelves over to get to any
book in the closed stacks in the basement. If you need more than one,
chances are they'll be in two different shelves. I still miss working at
Kenyon College, as their library had an excellent classics selection. Not
many new books but their selection of books from the early 20th c. on down
was much better than the local public libraries. Actually got to leaf
through one of the earliest printed Bibles; german, no fancy color
illustrations but I didn't mind. ;-)

On checking out what books are available, do your local libraries have any
form of computer access? I can telnet to a computer database and search
four local libraries. Could even put a hold or request on a book if I could
remember my PIN number...


>Any input from the numerous librarians on our list as to why libraries get
>rid of so many books?--is circulation everything?  I think spaciousness is
>nice in a building but why in a library?--my favorite library was the
>former one in Tempe.  It had been in an old home and book cases were built
>in everywhich way.  It was a cramped book maze that was a house of wonders
>to me as a kid.  They built a large, spacious one, to replace it with big
>open areas of useless space where mostly children run and scream (?)
>instead of book cases.

That's one thing I've noticed in all the college (5) libraries I've been
in. A few desks to study in & a few computer terminals but the rest is all
bookshelves. I think the reaping is mainly due to the need for more space
so they can put in new books. Getting quite sick of seeing too many trash
bios and bestsellers at a library. Granted I don't mind finding a new book
I was about to buy at the library. Hopefully the Newark library (one town
over) will finally start on the new building soon.

>Deborah
>
>Deborah McMillion
>deborah(at)gloaming.com
>http://www.gloaming.com/deborah.html


Kevin Clement
clementk(at)alink.com

"my remorse is over now and forever for desire and dream has gone and I am
complete"
Lord Sepulchrave - Gormenghast

------------------------------

End of Gaslight Digest V1 #17
*****************************